[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

ratsapprentice · Jul 14, 2015

Tallshort said:
Potentially for the world cup? Sorry no

Sorry, yes, potentially.

The bar at 6 isn't set incredibly high atm - all Burgess needs to do is learn how to frosby flop, not break the world record.

McTallshort · Jul 14, 2015

You say it like anyone can play 6. Clifford,Clarke, wood and ewers are all better 6s. Burgess may have potential but against a top international side you need a grafting 6 with a line out option.

ratsapprentice · Jul 14, 2015

Ewers is definitely a better 6, Clifford is possibly a better 6 - neither are in the squad....

Wood and Haskell are pretty average international sixes, Clark shouldn't be near the squad.

The lineout is the main difficulty - hence "potentially".

Every Time Ref · Jul 14, 2015

ratsapprentice said:
*as a centre

Fair enough, sorry for misrepresenting you.

I can't agree though, "potentially" isn't enough to earn a World Cup squad place. The competition might not be stellar but I'd still back both Haskell and Wood to produce a world class performance over Burgess, as I would have Itoje.

ratsapprentice · Jul 14, 2015

Every Time Ref said:
The competition might not be stellar but I'd still back both Haskell and Wood to produce a world class performance over Burgess

How many have they produced in their combined 94 caps? If you were being generous I think you'd have to admit that there's a less than 1 in 10 chance of them producing a "World Class" performance.

So we're clear - world class means "there or thereabouts the best player in their position in the world".

Maverick1987 · Jul 14, 2015

ratsapprentice said:
How many have they produced in their combined 94 caps? If you were being generous I think you'd have to admit that there's a less than 1 in 10 chance of them producing a "World Class" performance.

So we're clear - world class means "there or thereabouts the best player in their position in the world".

2012 England vs NZ - Tom Wood was unbelievable that day ...

Patchey · Jul 14, 2015

ratsapprentice said:
Ewers is definitely a better 6, Clifford is possibly a better 6 - neither are in the squad....

Wood and Haskell are pretty average international sixes, Clark shouldn't be near the squad.

The lineout is the main difficulty - hence "potentially".

Clifford is a better 6, but you're right, he ain't in the squad!

I want to reserve judgement on Sam until I've seen him play back row internationally. I just pray to all the deities he isn't used at 12.

chippieolamus · Jul 14, 2015

I agree. I don't remember Wood or Haskell having any standout games for England since 2012, so I don't see why they would bleakly to produce a 'world class' (hate that term, way too vague) performance. Burgess, on the other hand, has experience of being one of the best players in the world (admittedly in a different code, but I think the point still stands) in a similar sport, so I would argue given certain style of game where a big tackling, hard running 6 is needed, he may be able to produce a 'world class' performance as it would be more suited to the style he played in league. I don't really see a particular style of game which could result in Haskell or Wood giving a world class performance. That doesn't necessarily mean Burgess should start at 6 though.

- - - Updated - - -

Maverick1987 said:
2012 England vs NZ - Tom Wood was unbelievable that day ...

Trouble is, its now 3 years since Wood showed that level of performance, and I dont see anything suggesting he will return to that form.

TobesHodges · Jul 14, 2015

Can someone just start a England v France thread for the 15th already!!

j'nuh · Jul 15, 2015

ratsapprentice said:
How many have they produced in their combined 94 caps? If you were being generous I think you'd have to admit that there's a less than 1 in 10 chance of them producing a "World Class" performance.

So we're clear - world class means "there or thereabouts the best player in their position in the world".

I mean, if the odds of Wood/Haskell producing a World Class game is a generous 1 in 10, I'd say the odds for Burgess is a generous 1 in 20...

If Robshaw/Kvesic is off the cards, I think I'd like to see Launchbury fill the 6 shirt next.

Duck a l'Orange · Jul 15, 2015

TobesHodges said:
Can someone just start a England v France thread for the 15th already!!

Unfortunately that comes under pre-RWC (and post 6N too). We're pinned down from all angles.

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) · Jul 15, 2015

j'nuh said:
I mean, if the odds of Wood/Haskell producing a World Class game is a generous 1 in 10, I'd say the odds for Burgess is a generous 1 in 20...

If Robshaw/Kvesic is off the cards, I think I'd like to see Launchbury fill the 6 shirt next.

How about Parling ?

although Would rather slater if we were to put a lock at 6.

Maverick1987 · Jul 15, 2015

Tigs Man said:
How about Parling ? although Would rather slater if we were to put a lock at 6.

I'd rather Itoje at 6

Duck a l'Orange · Jul 15, 2015

Tigs Man said:
How about Parling ? although Would rather slater if we were to put a lock at 6.

Why bother with locks when you've got Billy V and Ben Morgan to take 8?

Oh, yeah. Lineouts... Boringgggg

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) · Jul 15, 2015

Orange said:
Why bother with locks when you've got Billy V and Ben Morgan to take 8?

Oh, yeah. Lineouts... Boringgggg

Dan Cole as a jumper maybe?

Duck a l'Orange · Jul 15, 2015

Tigs Man said:
Dan Cole as a jumper maybe?

I'd rather have Kieran Brookes as a hoody for those cold Newcastle nights.
I'll get my coat...

Maverick1987 · Jul 15, 2015

Tigs Man said:
Dan Cole as a jumper maybe?

We already rely on him to be an openside ! I think being a lock aswell might be asking too much ! Haha

Peat · Jul 15, 2015

j'nuh said:
I generally take sports journalism with a pinch of salt tbh. Interviews are more dictated by the interviewer than the interviewee in sports. Coaches say their bit to keep up PR responsibilities and then get on with their main jobs. Coaches are nearly always intentionally vague, so as not to give anything internal away. If Lancaster has talked about Burgess more often than other players, it will probably be because interviewers ask after him. Lancaster is full of praise for him, but who in his squad is he not full of praise for? If Lancaster talks about him as a WC possibility, that's not lying; Stephen Donald played a World Cup final because of injuries. I'm sure he'd say that anyone in his squad has a chance. Until a journo says that Lancaster is going to pick Burgess in his 31-man squad, I'm going to assume everything said so far is the normal PR fluff.

I'll make sure to eat my words if I'm wrong about this

If your pinch of salt regards salt journalism makes you think all interviews are more dictated by the interviewer, you did not take enough salt. Sports journalists rely on access to do their job and the RFU control access. Journalists with annoying opinions end up with less access.

Lancaster has never said just enough to do his PR responsibilities and if you think he's been vague about what he thinks about Burgess I struggle to believe you've actually been paying attention - not to mention that every word has been backed up by action to date which you've ignored.

You are wrong about this. I don't know whether he's going, but if you think it's not a serious possibility and that Lancaster isn't interested in it, then it seems to be because you're sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La-la-la".

I don't particularly want him to go. None of us particularly want him to go with most of us thinking it'd be idiocy. But it's under prolonged discussion for a reason.

Patchey · Jul 15, 2015

Orange said:
Unfortunately that comes under pre-RWC (and post 6N too). We're pinned down from all angles.

This thread is now a monster. I like it.

chippieolamus · Jul 15, 2015

Patchey said:
This thread is now a monster. I like it.

Has a thread got to 100 pages before?

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