[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[Ragey Erasmus]

Except Burgess was poor in Bath's backline at center and only seamed settled when he moved to the back row. Nothing I have seen from his time @ Bath makes me convinced in the slightest he should be our choice there.

This, Burgess is not premiership quality 12 let alone international quality. Some have argued Burgess is in for more than his name but if he is put at 12, that becomes incredibly difficult to defend. His performances at 12 have been average at best and it will be a joke for him to become 1st choice 12 for England.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Except Burgess was poor in Bath's backline at center and only seamed settled when he moved to the back row. Nothing I have seen from his time @ Bath makes me convinced in the slightest he should be our choice there.

This.

Slade has nowhere near the experience. Farrell offers about as much at inside centre as Flood did. Got to be Barritt to start really. Also I know highlight reels are a ridiculous way of making an argument but just to remind you all of the best bits:

 

[Every Time Ref]

He'll play barritt at 12 if he wants a safe defensive game but Burgess will give you that aswell but with alot more aggression. Barritt has no attack where burgess is faster, good offload and a great decoy which may opens things up for JJ etc.

That's emphatically not true. Burgess is a good tackler, that is not the same as being a good defender. Barritt may be severely limited in attack but to claim Burgess is capable of the same level of organisation, line speed, decision-making and leadership is completely wrong in my opinion. Probably Burgess is slightly better in attack, but not by a huge amount and, as 2 other Bath supporters (who presumably, like me, have watched close to every minute of union Burgess has ever played) he is quite clearly not an inside centre. He's always looked a little lost there, and no amount of "presence" or "big game temperament" will mitigate that.

 

[Peat]

England Running Burgess at Centre according to Mike Ford

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-uni...-ford-backs-sam-burgess-to-shine-at-world-cup

that's worrying, but it also shows that England are not settled on their current 12's...

Given just how much of a cripple fight the choice is, I really can't blame them. I wouldn't put Burgess there, but I have to admit I actually might, as at least he can tackle, run forwards and possesses big match composure. With Joseph to organise him, that might genuinely make him the best of a bad bunch as in to say, while not really good enough, he might not possess a fatal flaw either.

Certainly if he did somehow got the nod, I wouldn't be raging about how poorly done by Barritt, Burrell, 36 et al were and I doubt I'm alone there.

 

[j'nuh]

Still think that Lancaster is thinking more long term with respect to Burgess, than a sudden rush to get him into the WC squad. Whether he plays BR or in the centres, learning the drills of a centre will be good for his game.

As for Kvesic, I think that viewing him solely on his merits as a fetcher is a little reductive; his all-round game is very good. He's also on the rise, and will most likely clearly overtake the England incumbents in the next WC cycle. And can we say that Lancaster has that many favourites for Kvesic to overtake? Clark has yet to win a cap, Haskell has sat out of various EPS squads over the last 4 years, leaving Wood and Robshaw. IMO, keep improving at the rate he is, and Lancaster will have a hard time of not giving Kvesic some game time.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is Kvesic really on the rise?
I've not seen any major improvements from when he was at Worcester.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Is Kvesic really on the rise?
I've not seen any major improvements from when he was at Worcester.

Shame Kvesic didn't go Leicester

Behind our pack he would be brilliant and playing in the champions cup.

 

[j'nuh]

Is Kvesic really on the rise?
I've not seen any major improvements from when he was at Worcester.

I think so. Won player of the season quite comfortably at Glos last year. Got a ton of MOTM awards.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think so. Won player of the season quite comfortably at Glos last year.

Not really the hardest award to win similar to winning Leicester Tigers back of the season last season wouldn't it

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think so. Won player of the season quite comfortably at Glos last year. Got a ton of MOTM awards.

True, but he was excellent at Worcester (hence his England callup/caps).

 

[Peat]

Still think that Lancaster is thinking more long term with respect to Burgess, than a sudden rush to get him into the WC squad. Whether he plays BR or in the centres, learning the drills of a centre will be good for his game.

Burgess has been pursued, promoted and talked up by Lancaster to about the limits of his position - including repeatedly talking about him as a WC possibility. I'm curious about how you've come to this opinion to say the least.

 

[Crapspray]

Still think that Lancaster is thinking more long term with respect to Burgess, than a sudden rush to get him into the WC squad. Whether he plays BR or in the centres, learning the drills of a centre will be good for his game.

As good as a full preseason with Bath playing in his better-suited, long-term position? Along with three or so months of premiership experience playing against weakened sides?

Whereas playing him out of position, likely off the bench, for a few warm-up games, and spending a preseason training for that incorrect position, will be much better.

As Peat has said, I think it says a lot about the state of inside-centre for England that they'd resort to it. Unless they just want him in the team for "big game experience". Or Lancaster feels slighted that Bath played him at blindside contrary to his wishes (and were proved right).

 

[Every Time Ref]

I've always said, from day 1, that Burgess won't make the World Cup squad. I actually believe now that I'm wrong, but I stand by my belief that he shouldn't.

It's telling that myself @ncurd, @ratsapprentice and @ragerancher have all argued against Burgess's inclusion on this thread - Bath supporters who've seen the most and been the most invested in his development. We've all been very positive about him in match threads, it's not like any of us are "anti-Burgess", but the fact is his club supporters don't see him as international standard. I bet, secretly, Mike Ford agrees too.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's telling that myself @ncurd, @ratsapprentice and @ragerancher have all argued against Burgess's inclusion* on this thread

*as a centre

 

[ncurd]

I don't think I'd be enthusiastic with him playing 6 either but I can accept if he's included in the squad (not matchday team though).

 

[McTallshort]

*as a centre

But you think he makes the grade as a Flanker? International standard?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Potentially, yes.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Right now?!
Not a chance!

I really don't know how people can say he deserves his spot, on his performances this season, with a straight face.
I've got no doubt he will be worthy, probably by the time the Six Nations rolls around - could even be our first choice 6 if he keeps improving as he did when given some decent time there, but right now? No.

Itoje is probably about the same development level as Burgess, and is better.

 

[j'nuh]

Burgess has been pursued, promoted and talked up by Lancaster to about the limits of his position - including repeatedly talking about him as a WC possibility. I'm curious about how you've come to this opinion to say the least.

I generally take sports journalism with a pinch of salt tbh. Interviews are more dictated by the interviewer than the interviewee in sports. Coaches say their bit to keep up PR responsibilities and then get on with their main jobs. Coaches are nearly always intentionally vague, so as not to give anything internal away. If Lancaster has talked about Burgess more often than other players, it will probably be because interviewers ask after him. Lancaster is full of praise for him, but who in his squad is he not full of praise for? If Lancaster talks about him as a WC possibility, that's not lying; Stephen Donald played a World Cup final because of injuries. I'm sure he'd say that anyone in his squad has a chance. Until a journo says that Lancaster is going to pick Burgess in his 31-man squad, I'm going to assume everything said so far is the normal PR fluff.

I'll make sure to eat my words if I'm wrong about this

 

[McTallshort]

Potentially, yes.

Potentially for the world cup? Sorry no