[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[Irish boy]

If there is another injury a man with the worst disciplinary record ever David sin bin Paice could come in.

 

[Patchey]

If there is another injury a man with the worst disciplinary record ever David sin bin Paice could come in.

Love a bit of Paicey!

 

[ratsapprentice]

...I must have missed something....

Having terrible discipline =/= being a nasty person in the majority of circumstances.
Hartley has always come across as a decent guy to me, on pitch self control issues not withstanding.

 

[Irish boy]

Love a bit of Paicey!

Everyone loves him

 

[Every Time Ref]

I have not liked what I have seen of Webber recently, I'd take Batty over Webber.

Me too. Seems Ford agrees now as well, Batty starting again tomorrow.

Feel for Dylan, good guy and a top player. Hope to god we don't get an injury. Idea of someone as rank average as Jamie George playing in world cup for England at hooker is cringe worthy. Hartley took him to pieces on weekend in all areas of game as well.

That wasn't the game I saw ...

Having terrible discipline =/= being a nasty person in the majority of circumstances.
Hartley has always come across as a decent guy to me, on pitch self control issues not withstanding.

He's been done for biting and eye gouging in the past though, both acts which frankly I can't see a "nice person" ever committing.

 

[yaboyjj]

Feel for Dylan, good guy and a top player. Hope to god we don't get an injury. Idea of someone as rank average as Jamie George playing in world cup for England at hooker is cringe worthy. Hartley took him to pieces on weekend in all areas of game as well.

oh the irony.
can't wait for the babaas match on Sunday- has the team been announced yet? Massive opportunity for LCD. Massive.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Big worry with George is that his barrelling runs which look so good in the premiership will be thrown back on the international stage, doubly so at the world cup. Australia and Wales have some big boys in the backs so probably best to have a hooker who specialises in scrum and lineout work. England will hopefully have Launchbury, Billy and one other ball carrying forward in the pack. Although Youngs, LCD and George aren't bad at all at those areas I feel a lot of international hookers would show them up.

Anyone know the lineout percentages for Youngs and LCD this season?

 

[Every Time Ref]

Isn't Youngs the best thrower in the Prem statistically? Sure I heard that somewhere

 

[91jmay]

You must have missed the Six Nations; "rank average" is probably how most people would have described Hartley's performances throughout.

In fact, only partly because of the irony, George is the perfect replacement. Slightly above average work rate, reliable in the set-piece, and average to poor carrying. A six-out-of-ten player with stong technical skills. The main loss for England will be 66 caps in the starting XV. The main gain being he won't do something thick and get binned in a semi-final (assuming England get that far).

6 Nations where George wasn't picked because he wasn't good enough you mean? He is too fat and unfit for international rugby. Should be LCD in, whilst he is inconsistent he has lots of talent.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cowan-Dickie is in, he's just been loaned to the Barbarians squad for game time, same as Launchbury

 

[yaboyjj]

Big worry with George is that his barrelling runs which look so good in the premiership will be thrown back on the international stage, doubly so at the world cup. Australia and Wales have some big boys in the backs so probably best to have a hooker who specialises in scrum and lineout work. England will hopefully have Launchbury, Billy and one other ball carrying forward in the pack. Although Youngs, LCD and George aren't bad at all at those areas I feel a lot of international hookers would show them up.

Anyone know the lineout percentages for Youngs and LCD this season?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to contradict you there. IMO the quality of hooker atm is pretty average the world over, Hibbard, Best, Ford from the home nations- Moore, Strauss, Coles for SANZAR hardly leaves you shaking in your boots- in-fact I would rate Youngs' loose work above any of them. Having a hooker that can offer something different- ie. and X factor in some area (jackal/Carrying) adds so much to the pack as a whole.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Isn't Youngs the best thrower in the Prem statistically? Sure I heard that somewhere

Pretty much only ever throws to the front though, doesn't he?

 

[ncurd]

Pretty much only ever throws to the front though, doesn't he?

So he's the Dan Parks of lineout throwing?

 

[ZeroTwo]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to contradict you there. IMO the quality of hooker atm is pretty average the world over, Hibbard, Best, Ford from the home nations- Moore, Strauss, Coles for SANZAR hardly leaves you shaking in your boots- in-fact I would rate Youngs' loose work above any of them. Having a hooker that can offer something different- ie. and X factor in some area (jackal/Carrying) adds so much to the pack as a whole.

Seeing it put out like that, I understand where you're coming from. However with the England set up, there is often a lot of their strategy based upon success in the set piece (a cliché, but one I think is pretty accurate). Players like Bismarck dP, Mealamu and even Valdez for Argentina have shown that traditional strengths for hookers can be useful (having said that, Bismarck is handy around the whole park as well).

Just think a traditional hooker may work best for England's gameplan. If they can do everything else as well that's great but first and foremost you need a decent lineout thrower and scrummager.

 

[Peat]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to contradict you there. IMO the quality of hooker atm is pretty average the world over, Hibbard, Best, Ford from the home nations- Moore, Strauss, Coles for SANZAR hardly leaves you shaking in your boots- in-fact I would rate Youngs' loose work above any of them. Having a hooker that can offer something different- ie. and X factor in some area (jackal/Carrying) adds so much to the pack as a whole.

I wouldn't.

In more interesting hooker news, someone's edited Rob Webber's wiki page for minor giggles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Webber

 

[ZeroTwo]

In some non-hooker discussion, was having a look at the ages for the current England back row contention (some slightly more far fetched than others). Seems to me that Robshaw, Wood and Haskell have a lot of competition who are now pushing for places.

Question is: Is Robshaw just captain and solid starter for this world cup? He's no doubt a brilliant player and often underrated but perhaps by 2019 one of these young guys could have that shirt away from him? 32 is not too old of course, but that's a hell of a lot of competition, and if others deserve a chance to have a pop he can hardly be captain.

Maro Itoje (20)
Jack Clifford (22)
Billy Vunipola (22)
Matt Kvesic (23)
Josh Beaumont (23)
Dave Ewers (24)
Mark Wilson (25)
Calum Clark (25)
Ben Morgan (26)
Courtney Lawes (26)
Chris Robshaw (28)
Tom Wood (28)
James Haskell (30)
Nick Easter (36)

 

[yaboyjj]

I wouldn't.

In more interesting hooker news, someone's edited Rob Webber's wiki page for minor giggles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Webber

Then who would you rate as better around the field- none are exactly an in form BdP, Moore has always been pretty good but is getting on a bit now, Strauss? Best (blows hot and cold)? Hibbard?- I don't think this is an area of particular weakness for England as much as people are making it out to be, we'll be fine without Hartley.

 

[Peat]

In some non-hooker discussion, was having a look at the ages for the current England back row contention (some slightly more far fetched than others). Seems to me that Robshaw, Wood and Haskell have a lot of competition who are now pushing for places.

Question is: Is Robshaw just captain and solid starter for this world cup? He's no doubt a brilliant player and often underrated but perhaps by 2019 one of these young guys could have that shirt away from him? 32 is not too old of course, but that's a hell of a lot of competition, and if others deserve a chance to have a pop he can hardly be captain.

The potential is there for it to happen but it's up to someone else to make it happen. I hope so tbh; he has been an excellent servant, but he's not World Class, and any player overtaking him on merit probably would be. That said, I see only two real prospects there who could be a World Class openside, and that's Kvesic and Clifford, and I can't say I'm convinced either will make it. Blindside and no. 8 seem the real battlegrounds.

Then who would you rate as better around the field- none are exactly an in form BdP, Moore has always been pretty good but is getting on a bit now, Strauss? Best (blows hot and cold)? Hibbard?- I don't think this is an area of particualr weakness for England as much as people are making it out to be, we'll be fine without Hartley.

Much of a muchness before accounting for form would probably be my assessment - I don't think they're better than Youngs, but I don't think Youngs is better than them.

And I disagree it's an area of weakness. You can't play Tom Youngs for 80 minutes every game. We are relying on an inexperienced player or two stepping up. And, despite his recent wobble, Hartley was still by some distance our best set-piece hooker. I hope Cowan-Dickie makes me eat these words, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Positives and negatives from the AV final:

+++++++

- Attwood, Burgess, Bunipolae, George (Auterac too, but not really all that pertinent you'd think)
- Mako's shown his new found scrummaging prowess wasn't fleeting
- Rokoduguni's re-found form and fitness

------------

- Webber's form continues to freefall
- Ford a bit shaky (not too worrying for the moment)
- Watson's apparent concussion - hopefully not too serious, because he's been in blistering form

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Was really impressed with George.
I imagine he'll have to do something special in training/warmups to get close to the 23, but he really deserves to be.