[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[yaboyjj]

OK, so the French squad for the game has been released:

Uini Atonio, Xavier Chiocci, Vincent Debaty, Nicolas Mas, Rabah Slimani, Guilhem Guirado, Dimitri Szarzewski, Alexandre Flanquart, Yoann Maestri, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Yannick Nyanga, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Loann Goujon, Louis Picamoles, Rory Kockott, Morgan Parra, Remi Tales, Francois Trinh-Duc, Alexandre Dumoulin, Gael Fickou, Remi Lamerat, Brice Dulin, Sofiane Guitoune, Yoann Huget, Scott Spedding.

By my reckoning (always hard to judge where they are at/who is in possession of each shirt), that looks like a nigh on 1st team group there- bearing in mind Dusautoir is injured this week.
Just what the doctor ordered imo- a real test match feel for the England group, though it is different to how the Welsh/Irish decided before the game to both use it to test out youngsters- I suppose the French need as much game time to bed in combos as possible (will they play a fist XV in the second fixture too?)
Marler, Cole, Youngs, Lawes, Robshaw, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Joseph, Barrett, Brown likely to be out from the England group, so It wouldn't be far fetched to say it's a 1st XV v 2nd XV.

 

[j'nuh]

Coaches are only as good as their resources and England disgracefully squandered theirs for over a decade... Yet he's completely turned around not just a team but English rugby in 4 years.... I fail to see how he is anything other than a great coach.

But like everyone else before him, he continues to squander resources, bringing in players way too late, and ignoring players like Kvesic.

Let's not forget he started his reign with Dowson, Palmer, Botha and Strettle, kept Ashton for two years, seemed almost determined to try and re-invent the rugby formation with two fullbacks, and had a strange obsession with Tom Johnson for a while...

As for Burgess, the time for experiments is over in the centres. We have desperately little time left and we need to use it to gel our players. 10-12-13 is exceptionally unsettled. Barritt and Joseph, as far as I'm aware, are yet to have a start together. Ford has nearly no experience with Barritt and Farrell nearly none with Joseph. Cipriani has little with either. Our wings have an average of 10 caps each. I think that we could do with another 10 games to gel our backs together. Wasting the little game time we have on Burgess would be a big mistake for me.

I think we can get away with a couple of experiments in the forwards though. There's been enough continuity there that I think we can get away with it. We need to integrate LCD or George, and we could give 6. Vunipola 8. Morgan a go. I'd have liked to have also seen Ewers or Kvesic, but doesn't seem like it will happen.

 

[goodNumber10]

If burgess does become a star performer at 12 I wonder if bath will still try and convert him to 6?

Think that is dependent on Eastmond throwing in the towel or not...

 

[ratsapprentice]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">England bring forwad their team announcement for France to Monday at 1230. Has been schedule for Thursday</p>&mdash; Duncan Bech (@DuncanBech) <a href="https://twitter.com/DuncanBech/status/630481697923014657">August 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">England bring forwad their team announcement for France to Monday at 1230. Has been schedule for Thursday</p>— Duncan Bech (@DuncanBech) <a href="https://twitter.com/DuncanBech/status/630481697923014657">August 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Dramaaaa. So, we're still in line for Cipriani-Burgess-Slade in the back line then? That's going to be bloody interesting, glad I'm going (even if you always get a better view of the match at home...).

 

[yaboyjj]

Dramaaaa. So, we're still in line for Cipriani-Burgess-Slade in the back line then? That's going to be bloody interesting, glad I'm going (even if you always get a better view of the match at home...).

Um, I thought it was Farrell...
I stil reckon Burgess will stink the place up a bit- the 'great' SBW looked pretty inneffective and slow at centre on saturday, and he was always considered more fleetfooted/skillful than Burgess (nearest yardstick)... I'm happy to be prooved wrong, just have significant reservations atm.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Um, I thought it was Farrell...

Daily Mail was reporting Cipriani, and they're rarely wrong on England Rugby.
That said, it was a while back (two weeks?), so things could have changed by now.

 

[goodNumber10]

But like everyone else before him, he continues to squander resources, bringing in players way too late, and ignoring players like Kvesic.

Let's not forget he started his reign with Dowson, Palmer, Botha and Strettle, kept Ashton for two years, seemed almost determined to try and re-invent the rugby formation with two fullbacks, and had a strange obsession with Tom Johnson for a while...

As for Burgess, the time for experiments is over in the centres. We have desperately little time left and we need to use it to gel our players. 10-12-13 is exceptionally unsettled. Barritt and Joseph, as far as I'm aware, are yet to have a start together. Ford has nearly no experience with Barritt and Farrell nearly none with Joseph. Cipriani has little with either. Our wings have an average of 10 caps each. I think that we could do with another 10 games to gel our backs together. Wasting the little game time we have on Burgess would be a big mistake for me.

I think we can get away with a couple of experiments in the forwards though. There's been enough continuity there that I think we can get away with it. We need to integrate LCD or George, and we could give 6. Vunipola 8. Morgan a go. I'd have liked to have also seen Ewers or Kvesic, but doesn't seem like it will happen.

Well it's unreasonable to expect him to start with 22 teenagers, and they were phased out reasonably quickly.

On the centres, completely disagree, now is the only chance to experiment. How many pure-seasons have you played where your 1st 15 hit out 3games in a row? What could you possibly learn from that you already didn't?

Back in 2003 we fielded, Grayson, Wilkinson, greenwood, tindall, Abbott, .. In 2011 NZ did similar in the year leading into it.

You have to see guys play, otherwise just pick 22 and only change players when they get injured or lose firm.

*edit: 2003 England warm up teams, look how different they are with lots of green players..

Vs France: ENGLAND:*Robinson; Balshaw, Greenwood, Abbott, Cohen; Wilkinson, Bracken,; Woodman, Thompson, White, Johnson (capt), Kay, Hill, Back, Corry.

Vs Wales: England:*15.Dan Scarbrough, 14.James Simpson-Daniel, 13.Jamie Noon, 12.Stuart Abbott, 11.Dan Luger, 10.Alex King, 9.Andy Gomarsall, 8.Joe Worsley, 7.Lewis Moody, 6.Martin Corry, 5.Simon Shaw, 4.Danny Grewcock, 3.Julian White, 2.Mark Regan, 1.Jason Leonard*(capt), -*replacements:16.Dorian West, 17.Will Green, 18.Steve Borthwick, 19.Alex Sanderson, 21.Dave Walder, 22.Ollie Smith*-*No entry:*20.Austin Healey

Vs France: England: Balshaw*(Bath;*Walder*, Newcastle, 54);*Lewsey*(Wasps),*Smith*(Leicester),*Tindall(Bath;*Gomarsall*, Gloucester, 76),*Cohen(Northampton);*Grayson*(Northampton),Healey*(Leicester);*Rowntree*(Leicester;Leonard*, Harlequins, 62),*West*(Leicester, capt;Thompson*, Northampton, 50),*White(Leicester),*Borthwick*(Bath;*Shaw*, Wasps, 62),Grewcock*(Bath),*Corry*(Leicester),*Moody(Leicester),*Sanderson*(Sharks).

 

[Peat]

That's good news. It'll distract us from the Lancaster argument that we've all had before and our positions which really aren't going to budge... but until that point -

But like everyone else before him, he continues to squander resources, bringing in players way too late, and ignoring players like Kvesic.

Let's not forget he started his reign with Dowson, Palmer, Botha and Strettle, kept Ashton for two years, seemed almost determined to try and re-invent the rugby formation with two fullbacks, and had a strange obsession with Tom Johnson for a while...

I might go so far as to call Ashton the single biggest failure of Lancaster on a player to date; not only has he picked a player on very average performances (to be kind) for a looooong time, blocking development like mad, but he's also taken a guy who showed the ability to really play well at international level and wrecked him despite him being in his prime. It's almost quite impressive in a way.

I was thinking about what a wasted potential XV of Lancaster's reign would look like on the way home, bearing in mind it's a pretty nebulous term, and I came to the following conclusion:

You'd have pretty slim pickings in the tight five. Webber might reasonably ask what more he was meant to do in his starts but he's the only player where I'd feel Lancaster underplayed him compared to what he could. Unfortunate that Corbs has been injured so much, if you want to use the term that way; unfortunate that Haywood hasn't fulfilled his youthful potential to look at it another; Slater and Kitchener are unfortunate to be playing at a time of England's strongest lock depth since 2003. Mullan probably could have done more if asked. But, you know, not a huge amount going on here.

There's a bit more going on in the back row - Kvesic probably deserves more caps, Clark probably deserves at least *said between clenched teeth*, then there' SArmitage*; that's an ok sorta back row straight there! Fraser and Fearns are unfortunate to have been injured as much as they have; ditto Croft. Shame Ewers hasn't had a chance yet. I think Jamie Gibson coulda been more involved; it's hilarious just how bad Alex Gray's career has been to go real far back. Do Lund, Narraway and Seymour count? Anyway, more regretful than serious.

And the backs is just a riot. I mean, again, it depends slightly on how you define squandered. Do we blame Lancaster for failing to keep Tuilagi disciplined and missing a World Cup? That'd be harsh, I guess. Is Cipriani squandered as he hasn't started a game under Lancaster? Was Flood squandered? How about Charlie Hodgson? When Lancaster started the job, Ugo Monye was a test Lion with serious pace, strong defence, power in contact, good in the air with 13 England caps... and Monye's just retired with 14. That he got against Fiji. I'd call that talent squandered.

For Joe Simpson to only have one test cap by this age is a gigantic squandering of talent, although arguably by his club coaches rather than Lancaster. I don't think I'll ever understand why Matthew Tait hasn't been involved or why Burns has gone from start in NZ to not even in Saxons' squads in a year. It's three years since Foden played full-back for England. Obviously Wade not being more involved is really annoying. And debatably every inside-centre we've picked has had their talent squandered, again depending on how you define it (ditto Yarde and Roko)...

What I'm taking away from this is -
a) The backs have been really problematic
b) The entire England system just loves to waste talent; it's nuts that none of Youngs, Care or Simpson has got to the standard required or looks like ever doing so and while the national coach deserves some blame, there's been a whole lotta other people coaching them.

Anyway. Who's now feeling somewhat alarmed at the prospect of Australia having a pack?


*Yes, I know he's in France and I know he chose to move there. But I reckon if Lancaster has been as laudatory of Sam Burgess in the press as he has been of Armitage, Burgess would still be in League, and if he'd pursued Armitage like he had Burgess, Armitage would be in England; Steflon has made his choice because he reckons his England chances aren't too great as much as anything. And that's pretty nuts to me. I don't like the attitude some people have that Steflon is the greatest ever and would definitely improve us - but at the same time, he's really quite talented and it's far from unfathomable we're missing a trick. Whatever reason, both him and his brother are big talents that we haven't used.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Number10 yes the 2003 preseason teams changed a lot of players.

BUT unlike now SCW knew what his first XV was going to be.

 

[goodNumber10]

Number10 yes the 2003 preseason teams changed a lot of players.

BUT unlike now SCW knew what his first XV was going to be.

No he didn't.

He still had issues in the back three, moving Robinson from wing to 15 and Lewsey from 15 to wing, bringing Balshaw in and out as well. In fact Cohen was the only settled back three player mainly because Luger had got injured.

In the midfield Greenwood and Tindall were under massive pressure from Abbott and Charlie Hodgson (let's not forget Woodward was looking for a 12 that could compliment a limited 10) and he had plans to play Hodgson there.

He only had Grayson as 10 back up, King wasn't a realistic option at that stage and he still didn't know his first choice 9 flitting between Bracken and Dawson.

So whilst he certainly had a back bone of a team he has selection issues and uncertainties like every other works cup winning coach.

Coaches make decisions we dont agree with, it's as simple as that.

 

[goodNumber10]

That's good news. It'll distract us from the Lancaster argument that we've all had before and our positions which really aren't going to budge... but until that point -



I might go so far as to call Ashton the single biggest failure of Lancaster on a player to date; not only has he picked a player on very average performances (to be kind) for a looooong time, blocking development like mad, but he's also taken a guy who showed the ability to really play well at international level and wrecked him despite him being in his prime. It's almost quite impressive in a way.

I was thinking about what a wasted potential XV of Lancaster's reign would look like on the way home, bearing in mind it's a pretty nebulous term, and I came to the following conclusion:

You'd have pretty slim pickings in the tight five. Webber might reasonably ask what more he was meant to do in his starts but he's the only player where I'd feel Lancaster underplayed him compared to what he could. Unfortunate that Corbs has been injured so much, if you want to use the term that way; unfortunate that Haywood hasn't fulfilled his youthful potential to look at it another; Slater and Kitchener are unfortunate to be playing at a time of England's strongest lock depth since 2003. Mullan probably could have done more if asked. But, you know, not a huge amount going on here.

There's a bit more going on in the back row - Kvesic probably deserves more caps, Clark probably deserves at least *said between clenched teeth*, then there' SArmitage*; that's an ok sorta back row straight there! Fraser and Fearns are unfortunate to have been injured as much as they have; ditto Croft. Shame Ewers hasn't had a chance yet. I think Jamie Gibson coulda been more involved; it's hilarious just how bad Alex Gray's career has been to go real far back. Do Lund, Narraway and Seymour count? Anyway, more regretful than serious.

And the backs is just a riot. I mean, again, it depends slightly on how you define squandered. Do we blame Lancaster for failing to keep Tuilagi disciplined and missing a World Cup? That'd be harsh, I guess. Is Cipriani squandered as he hasn't started a game under Lancaster? Was Flood squandered? How about Charlie Hodgson? When Lancaster started the job, Ugo Monye was a test Lion with serious pace, strong defence, power in contact, good in the air with 13 England caps... and Monye's just retired with 14. That he got against Fiji. I'd call that talent squandered.

For Joe Simpson to only have one test cap by this age is a gigantic squandering of talent, although arguably by his club coaches rather than Lancaster. I don't think I'll ever understand why Matthew Tait hasn't been involved or why Burns has gone from start in NZ to not even in Saxons' squads in a year. It's three years since Foden played full-back for England. Obviously Wade not being more involved is really annoying. And debatably every inside-centre we've picked has had their talent squandered, again depending on how you define it (ditto Yarde and Roko)...

What I'm taking away from this is -
a) The backs have been really problematic
b) The entire England system just loves to waste talent; it's nuts that none of Youngs, Care or Simpson has got to the standard required or looks like ever doing so and while the national coach deserves some blame, there's been a whole lotta other people coaching them.

Anyway. Who's now feeling somewhat alarmed at the prospect of Australia having a pack?


*Yes, I know he's in France and I know he chose to move there. But I reckon if Lancaster has been as laudatory of Sam Burgess in the press as he has been of Armitage, Burgess would still be in League, and if he'd pursued Armitage like he had Burgess, Armitage would be in England; Steflon has made his choice because he reckons his England chances aren't too great as much as anything. And that's pretty nuts to me. I don't like the attitude some people have that Steflon is the greatest ever and would definitely improve us - but at the same time, he's really quite talented and it's far from unfathomable we're missing a trick. Whatever reason, both him and his brother are big talents that we haven't used.

Simpson has spent most of Lancaster's reign out with injuries, and he's had form 9's that have been out performing him.

Monye? Lol! turn it in.

He came back from the lions a broken man and was seriously injured leading into the 2011 world cup... Johnson dropped him and he never again hit his form so I'm not sure how Lancaster is accountable for squandering the talents of an out of form (at club level) player that was dropped under the old regime.

Burns had had a shocking loss of form at Club level, yet was brought into the NZ tour set up and given a chance against everyone (on this forums) preference but somehow Lancaster is responsible for Burns not having his opportunity with both hands?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

No he didn't.

He still had issues in the back three, moving Robinson from wing to 15 and Lewsey from 15 to wing, bringing Balshaw in and out as well. In fact Cohen was the only settled back three player mainly because Luger had got injured.

In the midfield Greenwood and Tindall were under massive pressure from Abbott and Charlie Hodgson (let's not forget Woodward was looking for a 12 that could compliment a limited 10) and he had plans to play Hodgson there.

He only had Grayson as 10 back up, King wasn't a realistic option at that stage and he still didn't know his first choice 9 flitting between Bracken and Dawson.

So whilst he certainly had a back bone of a team he has selection issues and uncertainties like every other works cup winning coach.

Coaches make decisions we dont agree with, it's as simple as that.

Massive pressure? Right.

Hodgson played 3 times for England @12 pre World Cup.

Abbott made his test debut in a World Cup warm up game.

Compared to Tindall's 25+ caps and Greenwoods 30+ caps pre World Cup and yes SCW knew exactly who his midfield was.

 

[Maverick1987]

Number10 yes the 2003 preseason teams changed a lot of players.

BUT unlike now SCW knew what his first XV was going to be.

Lancaster know what his 15 is . We might not agree with it but that's not his problem . There's a few spots like blindside flank where he has a couple of players but in my mind I think he's hoping Wood comes back to form then he will be straight in . 12 is a problem but I'm sure he has already decided Barritt will start there

 

[Peat]

Simpson has spent most of Lancaster's reign out with injuries

Has he indeed? What injuries and when?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lancaster know what his 15 is . We might not agree with it but that's not his problem . There's a few spots like blindside flank where he has a couple of players but in my mind I think he's hoping Wood comes back to form then he will be straight in . 12 is a problem but I'm sure he has already decided Barritt will start there

As peat just said when was the last time our first XV has ever played together?

 

[Peat]

As peat just said when was the last time our first XV has ever played together?

As Peat just edited out more like :lol:

To reput that pertinent point in then; Ford-Barritt-Joseph have never played together; there is a strong case for giving them as much gametime as possible.

 

[Maverick1987]

As peat just said when was the last time our first XV has ever played together?

England teams never have the full quota of players to select . Our league is too tough and long for that . It's an acceptance that that's what happens . We are more or less full strength this time barring injury from now on and obviously taking banned players out . Imo Hartley was going to get passed by Youngs for the World Cup anyway

 

[HowieLO6]

Massive pressure? Right.

Hodgson played 3 times for England @12 pre World Cup.

Abbott made his test debut in a World Cup warm up game.

Compared to Tindall's 25+ caps and Greenwoods 30+ caps pre World Cup and yes SCW knew exactly who his midfield was.

You're not wrong. While Abbott was on an upswing, there was no chance he'd have broken the incumbent pairing.

I'd argue that the preparation was better than that still, in so far as he had his "joker" to call upon in the form of Mike Catt. Had his starting pair with something a little different waiting in the wings. Never good enough to start, but certainly good enough to shake things up. Lancaster is terrifyingly-adrift of this.

 

[goodNumber10]

Has he indeed? What injuries and when?

You've got Google, and I'm on a phone so feel free to do the leg work.

Off to of my head he deffo had a dislocated shoulder middle of the 2012 6 nations and has been involved up until then.

I seem to recall he also had a hamstring injury in this period and a wrist injury... All landed at bad times selection wise iirc and in the meantime Care and Youngs have been swapping places.

It's not like he hasn't been in the squad is it?