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[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

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That there’s been a wild changing of players on the wing as Lancaster tries to find someone to fit ever-changing and illusory ideals? Which is my point.

Players have been tried and dropped in short notice, where others, in other positions, haven’t. That’s what’s unfair. Dropping May is fine, provided it’s equally applied to a) other wingers and b) other backs.


Your argument falls flat on it's gave as soon as you go back to my original point which is he's had the scope to drop them whereas he hasn't the others.

Let's not forget Burns was actually Farrell's back up not Ford - chances are SL might have dropped Farrell quicker if Burns had been on form.

Am i alone in finding it hilarious that people are moaning about him dropping players too quickly and then not quick enough in the same post?

Also I'm not sure why he is a poor coach because people don't perform when selected it's not for him to change the teams structure to fit Johnny May's headless chicken style running in.
 
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Hmm, I also think there are some people who are in the group we should have got the youngsters like LCD, Slade and co in earlier, they'd be further down their progression and we shouldn't waste our time on the likes of Barritt, Ashton and co.

Wait a sec, they were what? 17/18 in 2011? There is no way any self respecting coach picks a player that young in the international side unless they are a Manu Tuilagi, Savea or a Lomu. Which they weren't and then when they started bursting through late on the RWC development path to 2015 in around mid/late 2014 people complain why they aren't there earlier?

Madness.

The sides been in transition for 3/4 years and now is just heading into a stable period with the young talent coming through and combos gelling. It's just a shame it's only starting in 2015 and not say a year before. That's out of Lancaster's hands though and he's done a pretty decent job considering.
 
Your an idiot if you think Lancaster is a poor coach, he's there for a reason, have some kind of faith you moron..

I think he's a mediocre coach . I truly believe had we got a proven world class coaching team in charge we would have won 2 of the last 3 6N . Not taking anything away from the eventual winners
 
I think Lancs would be a good DoR - he's go the culture, the media savvy, seems a good motivator etc. but we do seem to be lacking a bit in the coaching. We've got some very good coaches (Wiggy has to be one of the best around as a scrum coach) but sometimes they're in the wrong role (Farrell Sr. should be a defence coach and nothing more).

As has been said many times before, I think England have the personnel (both coaching and playing) to be consistently one of the best teams in the world (rather than inconsistently atm), we just don't seem to be selecting it for whatever reason.
 
Your an idiot if you think Lancaster is a poor coach, he's there for a reason, have some kind of faith you moron..
Simple fact is that in four years, Lancaster has:
1. No Six Nations trophies
2. One win in 11 against South Africa/New Zealand (the win coming against a team with norovirus)
3. A 61% win record, reduced to 51% if you exclude guaranteed wins against Fiji, Italy and Argentina B

As far as building a team goes, Schmidt has built a better team, with less resources, in half the time. Lancaster has been slow to react to form and quality, wasting tens of caps in the process, and with less than a month to go to the World Cup, he's still considering gambles such as picking Burgess. I think we need a new head coach to be honest.
 
If Lancaster hadn't been in the England system already would he had have been given the job?

For example say 6 months prior to Johnson going Lancaster had go to (I don't know let's say Sale) would England have even looked at him for the England job once there was an opening.

The fact is he did a good job changing the attitude and the media perception but that wasn't the hardest thing to do post 2011.

Lancasters had to make the Argentina B/C/D test during the lions capped matches to get his numbers of giving young (23 under) players a "shot", how many of those players making first caps then has he kept on as regulars in the 23 without a injury having to happen first?

The likes of:
Kvesic
Eastmond
Thomas
May
Yarde
Vunipola
Myler

How many of those have actually been given a proper chance (outside Vunipola) and at the time most where extremely good form for clubs already and TBH prob deserve more than there caps now (Thomas aside due to depth).

Kvesic has been in the setup for 2 years and hasn't been capped outside of those games.

It's like he only keeps them to try and say he is given younger less experienced players a possibility.

He has done it already for the World Cup what was the point of picking the likes of Itojie, Daly, Kvesic etc really he was never going to use them all he said it was to build experience well maybe playing them in the first warm up or maybe even a six nation game or two might do that, he only picked them because the press and public like them.
 
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As has been said many times before, I think England have the personnel (both coaching and playing) to be consistently one of the best teams in the world (rather than inconsistently atm), we just don't seem to be selecting it for whatever reason.

How would you define best? Our ranking has been pretty consistently high. Whatever we are, I don't think we're inconsistent - our results, our 6N rankings, we're hitting the same spot over and over again.

In any case, obviously you don't think we're hitting that definition - and I'd agree.

But I don't agree we have the personnel to do it. J'nuh talks about Schmidt having less resources - Schmidt walked into the Irish dressing room and got to point at Best, POC, Heaslip, Sexton and BOD and say "These are my leaders". That's a pretty heavy duty resource right there and one Lancaster simply didn't have and doesn't have. I look at the England squad - and the players outside it - and I simply don't see those star players, those leaders, those tried and tested veterans at the peak of their powers. I just see a bunch of very good to competent international players, with a smattering of debatably World Class players (mostly still young) and maybe a smattering of potential shooting stars, and I don't even see that at inside-centre.

Maybe things would be different if we'd had a different coach picking and developing the squad up until now. I certainly do think Lancaster has made a whole rash of really questionable selection choices, particularly in the backline. But he did inherit a squad with very few experienced players entering their prime with genuine star potential - not a lot he could do about that. At least two of them - Corbs and Croft - have had massive injury issues. Not a lot he could do about that. But then he could have done a better job of building a squad around what he did inherit.

One of my biggest concerns and criticism with him would be that he's really struggled to find a style that suits the players we've got then coach them how to execute it. For example, right now, the idea seems to be we'll run people ragged a bit New Zealand style. Great. But why are we trying to do that with a pretty one-paced back row? Do we have the precision at the ruck, across the 15, to play that game? There's been plenty of well-founded criticism of our clearouts on this thread and, looking at Ireland, I firmly believe that the ruck is something an international coach can affect - although maybe it's unfair to expect Lancaster to be as good as Schmidt. But then, it wasn't Schmidt who taught Ireland how to maul, it was Plumtree. Is it unfair to expect Lancaster and Rowntree to be as good as Plumtree? Is it unfair to expect England's forwards coaching department to be as good as him?

I think Lancaster has done a decent job, all things considered, particularly if you throw in his relative inexperience for such a role (should you though?).

But I don't think a decent job is good enough. In terms of trophies and SH wins, it demonstrably hasn't been, but in terms of what I want England Rugby to be it isn't.

But I don't think a man doing a better job would have brought us hugely much more and if one does in the future it will be using resources Lancaster didn't have. I think we'd have won a 6N, and maybe beaten SA in the Autumn when they were dire, but that's about it. Schmidt might have won us lots of 6Ns, but he's a genius. Sadly, there's a very limited supply of such men and I don't think any exist in the English system.

Unless he shows something drastic though, there are probably better than Lancaster.

p.s.

I think it's mental that Lancaster has tried so many wings and only really given proper runs (when fit) to Ashton and Nowell. His fascination with Strettle was weird; his lack of appreciation for Monye seemed odd; and if he wants a full-back on the wing, why not Tait? Nor do I fully comprehend the rise and fall of Yarde, the cold shoulder of Foden, the liking of Watson (is Roko genuinely that bad under the high ball?) or, well, most of everything to do with England's wings; it's a mess.

I think it questionable that Flood wasn't perservered with more, that Burns can be playing good rugby in NZ one year and completely totally out of the picture the next; understand ditching Hodgson but wish we hadn't; understand Slade not getting blooded before hand but think that was a triumph of system over common sense; wonder if Myler's really good at holding tackle bags.

And the less said about Inside Centres, Alex Goode, and Lee Dickson the better. I'm venting here rather than looking for debate; I doubt that Odin himself could persuade me backs selection and development hasn't been an absolute mess throughout.
 
I think he's a mediocre coach . I truly believe had we got a proven world class coaching team in charge we would have won 2 of the last 3 6N . Not taking anything away from the eventual winners
Your probably right with that especially with the players and depth we have we should have alot more silverware.
SL has made his choices for the Wc so let's all have abit of faith in him, we k ow we have the players to do it and on home soil so if things do go wrong ( semis at the very minimum) then Lancaster has to carry the blame and his selections and choices along the way will be highlighted.
Not sure what people think of this but the next England coach I would have an SH coach say an Australian with attack in mind, we have one of the best packs in the world if not the best we just need a coach who can unleash the potential of the English backs.
(someone who would select Eastmond instead of 36)
 
If Lancaster hadn't been in the England system already would he had have been given the job?

For example say 6 months prior to Johnson going Lancaster had go to (I don't know let's say Sale) would England have even looked at him for the England job once there was an opening.

The fact is he did a good job changing the attitude and the media perception but that wasn't the hardest thing to do post 2011.

Lancasters had to make the Argentina B/C/D test during the lions capped matches to get his numbers of giving young (23 under) players a "shot", how many of those players making first caps then has he kept on as regulars in the 23 without a injury having to happen first?

The likes of:
Kvesic
Eastmond
Thomas
May
Yarde
Vunipola
Myler

How many of those have actually been given a proper chance (outside Vunipola) and at the time most where extremely good form for clubs already and TBH prob deserve more than there caps now (Thomas aside due to depth).

Kvesic has been in the setup for 2 years and hasn't been capped outside of those games.

It's like he only keeps them to try and say he is given younger less experienced players a possibility.

He has done it already for the World Cup what was the point of picking the likes of Itojie, Daly, Kvesic etc really he was never going to use them all he said it was to build experience well maybe playing them in the first warm up or maybe even a six nation game or two might do that, he only picked them because the press and public like them.

I don't agree with that at all.

He essentially picked the main squad and the Saxons squad for training. He's been pretty consistent in his belief the Saxons are the stepping stone to full England honours (which is understandable considering his coaching path).

Lancaster got in as caretaker let's not forget that, and in 4 games transformed the hopes of a country, I think he absolutely deserved a crack after that 1st period, but he still interviewed against other top flight coaches, and apparently his long term vision presented in that interview blew everyone away.

And if not Lancaster who else? Mallet? White? They would have done no better.

Dean Ryan or Mallinder, do we think they could step up? They've failed consistently at domestic level (as did Lancaster but at least he's come through the coaching path).

Schmidt? Great coach, who's been working with the same set of players for about 5 years, Ireland has just been an extension of his Leinster team with a boost from the other provinces in a structured system geared towards the national team, what guarantee he'd have developed more with England in the same period of time.

I think people are under estimating how difficult the 6 nations is to win, we have been metre points away from winning it, so at least we are there about and not floundering at the bottom.

I think Lancaster has done enough to deserve his crack at the cup, I personally see enough that I think he deserves a pop art 2019, I'd change Farrell's role to defence only, and let Catt get more involved but that's the only change.

I personally am not overly upset about the selection process, as in all honesty is probably have dinner the exact same thing.
 
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Dean Ryan or Mallinder, do we think they could step up? They've failed consistently at domestic level (as did Lancaster but at least he's come through the coaching path).

Mallinder's failed consistently at domestic level? :huh:

I'm kinda lost for words here. Also, what does the bit in brackets mean?

I mean, there's all sorts of stuff I disagree with in that post, but that's opinion and whatevs, but I am really puzzled as to how Mallinder can be said to have failed consistently if me and thee are speaking the same language.



Also, I never get people who say "I'd change the coaching team but keep the guy who's appointed them and seen fit not to change them".
 
Mallinder's failed consistently at domestic level? :huh:

I'm kinda lost for words here. Also, what does the bit in brackets mean?

I mean, there's all sorts of stuff I disagree with in that post, but that's opinion and whatevs, but I am really puzzled as to how Mallinder can be said to have failed consistently if me and thee are speaking the same language.



Also, I never get people who say "I'd change the coaching team but keep the guy who's appointed them and seen fit not to change them".

I didn't say I'd change the coaching team, I said i'd change their responsibilities.

I'm not sure tweaking it is exactly undermining Lancaster's choices.

I'd also make a couple of selection changes, does that mean I don't back the squad?

On Mallinder, Saints with all their resources and money have a paltry return on their investment and by everyone here's standard (especially your we should have trophies view point) one prem ***le and a European shield in the same season is atrocious.

Re: Bit in brackets, Lancaster is the highest qualified coach in the UK (iirc), he is an example of the RFU coaching pathway working.
 
Mallinder actually has 5 trophies in 10 top flight seasons over two clubs though.
 
Mallinder actually has 5 trophies in 10 top flight seasons over two clubs though.
Yes, but with the teams he's picked and had he's underperformed.

He's also very limited in his coaching style, pick big powerful players to punch a hole and take your chances. He's very saffa like in the way he plays the game. When he doesn't have players to play that way, he buys them in, he won't get that option with England.

Baxter, O'Shea, Richards would be better options (O'Shea's had 1 bad season in a little while)
 
That's been a really interesting read but there are some points to mention.

Inside centre is the only back position I give Lancaster sympathy for, this selections for the rest have been a bit of a mess and I believe it's all down to Lancaster not picking a style of play which in my opinion is a major coach failing.

With inside centre England have never had an all rounded top notch IC to be picked and he has tried all the options we have. It would t be such an issue if he had settled on the rest of the backs with a set style of play.

I don't think Lancaster is a good coach to be honest. He's done an average job with the players we have but he really could have done with a top notch set of coaches working under him.
 
Late reply, but:

Your argument falls flat on it's gave as soon as you go back to my original point which is he's had the scope to drop them whereas he hasn't the others.

I disagree. Players like Yarde and Ford were available. Were they green and imperfect? Absolutely. But so were Launchbury, Marler, Youngs, Vunipola, Morgan, Robshaw, etc. He's reaping the chaff he sowed in the backs. Meanwhile aforementioned players have developed into some of the best forwards in the Northern Hemisphere. (Sticking my neck out there.)

Let's not forget Burns was actually Farrell's back up not Ford - chances are SL might have dropped Farrell quicker if Burns had been on form.

Actually, Flood was. But Lancaster preferred Farrell, so Flood left. No doubt annoyed that a worse player was starting ahead of him, regardless of how badly said player performed. Imagine if he did that at 12, 14, and 15 as well...

Am i alone in finding it hilarious that people are moaning about him dropping players too quickly and then not quick enough in the same post?

Again, why are some dropped quickly and others not? Inconsistency either through incompetence or favouritism. It's the inconsistency I'm moaning about.

Going all the way back to May, is it shocking to find players lacking confidence in that sort of environment? Go and watch the player diaries from the 2011 RWC and look at Tom Wood in the background. He's miffed because Lee "Made of Crockery" Moody was starting ahead of him, regardless of form. And he was dropped first chance for him, and knew if he made a mistake he'd be gone instantly.

Also I'm not sure why he is a poor coach because people don't perform when selected it's not for him to change the teams structure to fit Johnny May's headless chicken style running in.

He based his entire backline for two years around the hope that Farrell would develop a good attacking game and Tuilagi would always be available; spent 24 months hoping Ashton would recover form (in a side which was an anathema to his natural game). Why can't he bend the rules so much for anyone else?

Again, we overlooked (well, accepted) Marler's poor scrummaging on the basis he would improve over the next two, three years. After a couple of stuffings, he now probably our first choice loosehead and capable of matching just about every tighthead in world rugby. Same with Launchbury, and his lack of strength in the tight early on.

He's a poor coach because in four years, with all the resources at his disposal, he's yet to win anything major. His win rate is higher than Johnson's by, what, 6%? Yet Johnson is regarded as a failure and Lancaster not? Different takeover, but the side Johnson got was hardly the 2011 All Blacks.
 
Wendigo - Would you go with 'failed consistently' then? That's the crux of this, not whether he should be next England coach.
 
He's failed a little bit yes.

Lack of 6 developed and at 12 is very annoying, as is a backup top class 15.

No trophies to note is frustrating and in part his fault entirely but also the players are to blame. There's also no way anyone could have guessed Scotland would have folded so badly this year against Ireland which was a disgrace. If they didn't fold we win the six nations and this chat doesn't even occur but sadly it is. I actually think Ireland are probably best placed to win the world cup and the fact that we could well have gone very close to winning dublin towards the end despite taking a drubbing for about 60 mins isn't awful.

We also are a bit unlucky that we have France away one year and Wales and Ireland at home, then the return away always makes it very hard for us to slam it.

It's just alot of things coincided at once, we've gone past Wales now and we're on par with Ireland for me, little more susceptible to buckling under pressure due to being a bit green and less leaders, but we'll see. I still think we'll win it as redemption for Lancaster and vindication of the last 4 years of work. If not, he's in the **** really and alot of very ****** off fans.
 
Speaking for myself - the reason I advocate Lancaster staying in a role similar to that of a DOR (but not a DOR) is that I think you need to have a strong culture* to carry over between coaching regimes.
Similar (whilst not identical) to what the AB's have in their culture/"mental skills" guy (can't remember his name) and their semi-independent "selectors".
The Lions also work very hard on this too, judging by tour documentaries.


*I'm less bothered about what that "culture" actually is, and more that one exists.
 
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There's also a little bit that, if you want to imitate how the All Blacks play, but with our English passion and our own hint of style too, you can't really employ someone like Mallinder, Cheika or Schmidt.

In the short term they will be much better, get you very organised and make you very competitive against the majority with the rigid styles they impose. Hansen, Henry, most all black teams play the same way and it's easy for the next coach to take the reigns because the styles the same and the performance will always be very good.

That's what England would like, the all black/barcelona style progression where it's all continuous, easy to understand, imitate and perform as a result. That style takes alot longer, 5-10 years minimum and if that's what Lanny is looking at, you want to know if he's the right coach to impose this style and whether the fans can tolerate the longer goal. Jury I guess is out on both a bit for now, bit of a wait and see.

Rats - Right on cue!
 
I'd actually been referring to Mallinder there, not Lancaster :lol: Although I think that's a pretty good summary of the situation. Definitely agree the players have to shoulder quite a share of the blame.

The way I see it is very fine margins at the top mean you don't have to fail by much to get a lot of hard luck stories - that goes for pretty much everyone in the set-up. Maybe England's luck will turn, I guess I could live with that. Just. They're very close after all - just a matter of how much you think they need to go that last few steps.


On a tangent, I think Wales' ageing tight five has done them in somewhat and think Ireland's letting us back into that game has a lot with Sexton going off; not to take anything from England though.
 
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