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[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

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Rokoduguni and Nowell/Yarde are pretty physical. Also I'm pretty sure if you gave Schmidt the chance with these two he could make it work.

By international standards? Don't think I'd agree with that. Maybe Nowell at a stretch.

I also think that saying Schmidt could do it should

a) Count as saying it doesn't; if it takes a genius of a coach to make it work, I just don't think it works.
b) Take more attention of how Schmidt's gone for the biggest, securest centre partnership he can find at the expense of attacking fluency for Ireland. Maybe he could do it, but I don't think he'd want to.

I really don't see it working no matter what system is used. You might be able to cope with the distortion of attacking shape - although I don't think it ideal - but defensively it's just too big an issue imo. Ford/Eastmond as a pairing is my prime example of how international rugby is different to AP.
 
Well I'm annoyed at Roko going, I'm still convinced he has the greatest potential of the England wingers for his all round game (with May having the best potential as a strike runner). If May has got on form though and acts less like a jittery rabbit in the headlights, then we could see some nice stuff. However training is one thing, playing games is another and May has not shown the best decision making. It seems like he doesn't trust any of his team mates.
 
By international standards? Don't think I'd agree with that. Maybe Nowell at a stretch.

I also think that saying Schmidt could do it should

a) Count as saying it doesn't; if it takes a genius of a coach to make it work, I just don't think it works.
b) Take more attention of how Schmidt's gone for the biggest, securest centre partnership he can find at the expense of attacking fluency for Ireland. Maybe he could do it, but I don't think he'd want to.

I really don't see it working no matter what system is used. You might be able to cope with the distortion of attacking shape - although I don't think it ideal - but defensively it's just too big an issue imo. Ford/Eastmond as a pairing is my prime example of how international rugby is different to AP.

In fairness once tuilagi comes back/learns to behave himself and plays at IC he will add the physicality . I also think Roko is our most physical back 3 player
 
However training is one thing, playing games is another and May has not shown the best decision making. It seems like he doesn't trust any of his team mates.

Are you sure it's not because he has the Sword of Damocles hanging over him whenever he's playing? I can't think of any other back who has been dropped as readily by Lancaster. Not that he shouldn't have been, but compare how quickly he's gone with Farrell, Twelvetrees, and Ashton. Or how Goode has, on two occasions, failed to prevent a decisive score, yet still remains a regular feature.

It reminds me of how Toby Flood was treated by Johnson; he was one of the first players collared after a bad game, but Hape, Cueto, and Tindall would all be untouched.

May isn't a decision-making winger. The scores than get him in the highlight reels are when he just goes for it (e.g. Connacht last season). So I feel it's similar to the criticism Ashton got for not scoring: that is, it's as much, if not more, because England are playing him in an unnatural way. Sod letting May think, give him five yards of space and let him go for it. That's how his three tries were scored.

I don't know any other winger who's better suited to England's narrow, rush defence. I also don't know how Lancaster plans on improving England's woeful tactical kicking with Burgess/Barritt at 12 and a slow left wing.
 
Are you sure it's not because he has the Sword of Damocles hanging over him whenever he's playing? I can't think of any other back who has been dropped as readily by Lancaster. Not that he shouldn't have been, but compare how quickly he's gone with Farrell, Twelvetrees, and Ashton. Or how Goode has, on two occasions, failed to prevent a decisive score, yet still remains a regular feature.

It reminds me of how Toby Flood was treated by Johnson; he was one of the first players collared after a bad game, but Hape, Cueto, and Tindall would all be untouched.

May isn't a decision-making winger. The scores than get him in the highlight reels are when he just goes for it (e.g. Connacht last season). So I feel it's similar to the criticism Ashton got for not scoring: that is, it's as much, if not more, because England are playing him in an unnatural way. Sod letting May think, give him five yards of space and let him go for it. That's how his three tries were scored.

I don't know any other winger who's better suited to England's narrow, rush defence. I also don't know how Lancaster plans on improving England's woeful tactical kicking with Burgess/Barritt at 12 and a slow left wing.

Maybe that's more to do with perceived depth in the position?

Easier to drop someone when they have 4-5 other players snapping at their heels.

And if he didn't fit the England game plan why moan about dropping him.... You can't change 14 other players to fit in one great winger.
 
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Glad to see another Simpsons fan in the forum.

Child of the '90s. I had no choice.

Maybe that's more to do with perceived depth in the position?

What depth? There's only one other winger in the 39 - Nowell - the other options are two fullbacks or a centre. Outside the squad there's no medium-experience options other than Ashton, the rest are complete newbies still. And no one with 50+ caps.

Easier to drop someone when they have 4-5 other players snapping at their heels.

Again, what players? May was first dropped to play Manu on the wing, who was then replaced by Ashton. I could understand if the players nipping at his heels replaced him, but only Nowell has done well. And that's when we had/have a fullback on the other wing.

Why did Goode play fullback when Brown had clearly bitten his feet off? Farrell play in the autumn of 2014 when Ford was far better? Ashton in 2012/13/14?

And if he didn't fit the England game plan why moan about dropping him....

Because the plan is ****e?

Consider that Lancaster has tried: Strettle, Ashton, Brown, Foden, Sharples, Yarde, Wade, May, Nowell, Tuilagi, Rockoduguni, Joseph, and Nowell on the wing in the last four years, and none have shone, I'd say it's worth looking at the system. You can't honestly think that all of those players are incapable at international level (especially when one has scored more tries than all wingers under Lancaster combined).

If there's so much depth (and so many players tried), surely Lancaster would find two that would fit? How specific is his plan? In fact, what is his plan/perfect winger? Saying "an extra fullback" doesn't count.

England's wingers have scored 7 out of 44 tries (16%) in the Six Nations under Lancaster. Before this year it was 2 out of 26 (8%). It's a terrible position under Lancaster. Winger, Inside-centre, and Flanker are criminally bad considering the players at England's disposal.

EDIT: All bar Nowell and Rockoduguni in that list have been available since 2012. So it's not like they've burst onto the scene in the last six months. They were just ignored for two and a half years.
 
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Nowell's been good all of the games he's played. Yarde was playing well but dropped. The issue is where we were to where we are.

2 different things.
 
Child of the '90s. I had no choice.



What depth? There's only one other winger in the 39 - Nowell - the other options are two fullbacks or a centre. Outside the squad there's no medium-experience options other than Ashton, the rest are complete newbies still. And no one with 50+ caps.



Again, what players? May was first dropped to play Manu on the wing, who was then replaced by Ashton. I could understand if the players nipping at his heels replaced him, but only Nowell has done well. And that's when we had/have a fullback on the other wing.

Why did Goode play fullback when Brown had clearly bitten his feet off? Farrell play in the autumn of 2014 when Ford was far better? Ashton in 2012/13/14?



Because the plan is ****e?

Consider that Lancaster has tried: Strettle, Ashton, Brown, Foden, Sharples, Yarde, Wade, May, Nowell, Tuilagi, Rockoduguni, Joseph, and Nowell on the wing in the last four years, and none have shone, I'd say it's worth looking at the system. You can't honestly think that all of those players are incapable at international level (especially when one has scored more tries than all wingers under Lancaster combined).

If there's so much depth (and so many players tried), surely Lancaster would find two that would fit? How specific is his plan? In fact, what is his plan/perfect winger? Saying "an extra fullback" doesn't count.

England's wingers have scored 7 out of 44 tries (16%) in the Six Nations under Lancaster. Before this year it was 2 out of 26 (8%). It's a terrible position under Lancaster. Winger, Inside-centre, and Flanker are criminally bad considering the players at England's disposal.

EDIT: All bar Nowell and Rockoduguni in that list have been available since 2012. So it's not like they've burst onto the scene in the last six months. They were just ignored for two and a half years.

The point is that he clearly thinks that other players are better options on the wing.... You've just named about 20 players who all got a spot this illustrating there is a whole bunch of people snapping at the held for a chance... The fact no one had nailed it on is irrelevant to that point.

Lancaster and co obviously want guys who are good in the air, solid in defence and excellent in traffic, May previously ticked one of those boxes pretending otherwise isn't going to change the howlers he has made.

So yes, they want an extra 15 as like NZ they are looking at playing an interchangeable 14/15 with a finisher on the right....
 
Lancaster and co obviously want guys who are good in the air, solid in defence and excellent in traffic

That makes some of their choices very perplexing then - perplexing to the point that I don't see how it's obvious.

I think May's been harshly done by at times as well. I'm still not really sure what he did to lose his place in the NZ tour, particularly as he seemed to be showing steady improvement after a rocky start, and I could see why he lost his place during the 6N but it seemed odd to be that impatient with him so quickly after a good Autumn. He's made his fair share of mistakes (and then maybe a few more), but he's far from the only England player to do so and most of them have had securer tenures than him.

But then he's not the only winger where I don't understand Lancaster, as Rokoduguni's treatment blows my mind somewhat. Solid debut, definite points of difference - yet declared unfit when maybe actually fit, ignored for David Strettle (another case where I don't understand Lancaster) and now ignored again. Very weird. I mean, if solid in defence and excellent in traffic are key points, how on earth is he not in?

I think May's problem is he looks nervy and I think Lancaster thinks he's nervy. Mentality is all and all that. But I also have to really question whether Lancaster actually has the first clue what he wants from his wingers. You'd like to think 'Of course he does' but his selection has been so erratic there that I really struggle to see what it is beyond ' two guys who do more right than wrong, any two guys at all', because our winger depth is akin to a particularly big puddle.
 
I don't think it's been that erratic, it's always been balanced, two 15's and an out and our winger, his hand has been forced a few times, and I think there have been experiments to see if skills transfer. Don't think that's too different to any other major nation bar Wales, and thinking back to 2003, and 2011 the winning teams didn't settle on their back three until the tournament started.


People will hate this, but if all players are on form then I think the most balanced back three they could go for is 11 Nowell, 14 Foden, 15 Brown.

#comeatme
 
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Foden's not in the squad though?

And I don't recognise this consistency of approach you see. Really don't recognise it at all.
 
Him and Simpson are in a weird limbo as they weren't properly in the squad to start with cause of their injuries.
They've not been named on the releases but equally aren't named in the squad list on the England rugby site.
No idea whether they're still training with the side.
 
The point is that he clearly thinks that other players are better options on the wing.... You've just named about 20 players who all got a spot this illustrating there is a whole bunch of people snapping at the held for a chance... The fact no one had nailed it on is irrelevant to that point.

And yet all of those people have failed to nail it. So what, precisely, is it? That's why I'd say the system is wrong - or Lancaster's judgement is. I don't think there's any other international coach who could go through 13 players, with about 80 caps to award, and end up with such a mess. Especially if they have a clear idea of what they want.

If he still thinks there are better options, who else does he plan on trying? With only two wingers in the squad, with all his warmups to play, he's nailed his colours early in that battle.

Lancaster and co obviously want guys who are good in the air, solid in defence and excellent in traffic, May previously ticked one of those boxes pretending otherwise isn't going to change the howlers he has made.

Meanwhile other backs have howlers -match losing howlers- and he still plays them without hesitation. Other players like Farrell (attack) and Ford (defence) have blatant weaknesses yet the squad plays regardless of them.

Also, were those attributes completely absent from the players he's tried? Picking the entire spectrum of players from defensive, slow fullback to quick, defenceless winger he couldn't find anyone to fill the niche?

So yes, they want an extra 15 as like NZ they are looking at playing an interchangeable 14/15 with a finisher on the right....

So basically he's trying out all these players to find one that's like Jane/Smith? Instead of just picking the best wingers he's got? I presume that's why England picked Cohen at 11 in '03 - because he was like Lomu.

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Put it this way: Is Lancaster picking Burgess at 12 because that's his best position? Or is Lancaster picking Burgess at 12 because he has a type of player in mind and Burgess is the best fit?

Rinse and repeat with all the wingers tried and discarded over the last four years. May is a particularly egregious victim of it. It's all made worse by Lancaster persisting with god-awful players elsewhere, because they fit his "mould" of player.

This weird, inconsistent application of selection criteria leads me, and others, to think he hasn't got a clue what sort of winger he wants. Which is why we have basically no experienced, confident wingers. See Inside Centre for further details.
 
Crapspray I'll go through your post and pick out the key parts:

- Fail to nail a position on the wing - Ashton was playing well but was told to improve on his defence and didn't, got dropped. Nowell played well in his games. Brown and Foden swapped because Lancaster was looking for combinations initally and didn't like what he saw. Watson has done better than most on the right wing, a little raw. I'm also aware they pick Watson not just for now, but because they believe in a couple of years he could be one of the premier wingers if he continues developing. Foden has had bad injuries, May was decent actually in kick chase but poor in tackling. Combined he wasn't as ruthless on the international scene than he was at the club scene you can see why he was dropped. Tuilagi on the wing. You can see where I'm going with this.

- On Farrell and Ford... Booolllllocks. "blatant weaknesses", I'm not sure about that. Also your having some perceived idea there are players out there with a rounded skill set like a young carter at 10. There isn't a single player on the planet like that anymore, not one so don't bring that up. You only need to look at Pollard today to justify that statement. Ford's the best of the young generation of 10s (Yes Sopoaga I know) and Farrell's come on leaps and bounds. It's not his fault Flood wasn't happy at sharing the 10 spot, Wilko retired, Goode is too fat, Cipriani had mishaps, Slade about 2 years too early and probably a better centre than fly half. Again, Lancaster's picked from available.

- The switch of mentality you refer too is in part the change in personnel in the side and the fact Lancaster believes the build the house first (defence) so you pick the players to play that criteria, then you add the icing on the large house cake (attack). His selection policy leaves alot to be desired in certain aspects but he's kept the team pretty consistent and for the most part we've been pretty good, top 2 inches have been missing but that may or may not come.

- "Picking the best wingers he's got" - He's trying your criteria of looking to pick in form, whilst picking proven performers. He's also looking at the back 3 to be very good under the high ball as the primary skill. That immediately takes Roko, Wade, Ashton and Yarde out the equation and leaves Nowell, Foden, Brown, May, Watson (somewhat arguable) left over. His selection criteria he goes by means the selections he makes make sense. Whether you want to pick them differently is up to you but Ireland's dismantling of us with poor back 3 catchers, Goode, Watson and Nowell (Nowell actually did well but the other 2 were shocking)... you can now see why.

- I think Burgess was earmarked as England's 12 a long time ago regardless of his performances in the AP. They liked what they saw in the 2013 RWLC, he's a fantastic leader, offloader and tackler. Perfectly suited at 6 or 12 potentially. He discarded and chopped players over the years because they didn't perform, maybe they weren't good enough in the first place is another question but we can't just say there's automatically another international coming along. Webber, Goode, Twelvetrees, Burrell. All examples of this.

Inside centre is an issue period because I'd argue no one has stepped up to the plate once. I'd like to see Farrell get a role outside Ford at 10, I'd also like Burgess or Slade looked at 12 also. But Barritt has done a very solid job requested at 12, the others haven't really put there hand up.

He can only work with the hand given. Don't try and find flaws for the sake of it.
 
- Fail to nail a position on the wing - Ashton was playing well but was told to improve on his defence and didn't, got dropped… You can see where I'm going with this.
That there's been a wild changing of players on the wing as Lancaster tries to find someone to fit ever-changing and illusory ideals? Which is my point.

Players have been tried and dropped in short notice, where others, in other positions, haven't. That's what's unfair. Dropping May is fine, provided it's equally applied to a) other wingers and b) other backs.

- On Farrell and Ford... Booolllllocks. "blatant weaknesses", I'm not sure about that. Also your having some perceived idea there are players out there with a rounded skill set like a young carter at 10. Again, Lancaster's picked from available.
Yes, blatant. Farrell is a poor attacking fly-half at international level. Ford is a poor defender. Lancaster has picked what's available and played around their weaknesses. If only he did that with his wingers, rather than searching for the perfect defender.

- His selection policy leaves alot to be desired in certain aspects but he's kept the team pretty consistent and for the most part we've been pretty good, top 2 inches have been missing but that may or may not come.
I think England have the potential (player base, funding, youth, and domestic league) to be one of the best sides in the World. I think the U20s, U18s, and womens' teams' successes show this. In four years we've gone from being ranked fourth in the world to… fourth. Meanwhile, Ireland are now ranked third, with back-to-back Six Nations ***les.

Not good enough. I'm sick of being told consistent mediocrity is acceptable. And being promised jam tomorrow.

- He's trying your criteria of looking to pick in form, whilst picking proven performers. He's also looking at the back 3 to be very good under the high ball as the primary skill. That immediately takes Roko...
I presume you haven't seen Rocko play for Bath much then? Or heard Lancaster mention his solidity when he picked him to play against New Zealand?

He's also picked out of form many, many times. Ever heard of "credit in the bank"? It's Lancaster for "I know he's crap, but I like him, and know him from my time at Leeds.".

His selection criteria he goes by means the selections he makes make sense. Whether you want to pick them differently is up to you but Ireland's dismantling of us with poor back 3 catchers, Goode, Watson and Nowell (Nowell actually did well but the other 2 were shocking)... you can now see why.
Nothing to do with being beasted at the breakdown? Another area of failing, unaddressed for four years now. Largely caused by loyalty to players who are unlikely to be part of the best side in the world.

Those three players have all played fullback, yet were awful at returning kicks? Well, with one a fullback out of position, the other the worst back in the 50-man training squad, and the third just back from injury, colour me shocked.

I still have no idea exactly what he wants his back three to do. Other than defend. Which is an appalling compromise with the number of players at his disposal.

I think Burgess was earmarked as England's 12 a long time ago regardless of his performances in the AP.
So he's been assigned a position regardless of how he turns out? So we're in agreement, Lancaster has shoehorned him in. Sod Burgess, I need a big inside-centre, and he's big.

He discarded and chopped players over the years because they didn't perform, maybe they weren't good enough in the first place is another question but we can't just say there's automatically another international coming along.
We can for certain players. Hence, it's unfair. Either all players have "credit in the bank" or you're ruthless to every one of them.

Inside centre is an issue period because I'd argue no one has stepped up to the plate once.
How long have they had each? Four or five caps, and then they're dropped. Farrell probably played with five or six centre combinations before he went.

How many permutations of back three will Lancaster get through before he plays two wingers and good fullback for more than four games in a row? Or realise a certain player, with an ironic-sounding name, is a wasted pick.

He can only work with the hand given. Don't try and find flaws for the sake of it.
I don't have to look hard. They're blindingly obvious at times, and have been for years. As I've said, we have the potential to become one of the world's best sides. At this point, I have very little confidence the current coaches can deliver that.

He's also been dealt probably the best hand of any coach outside New Zealand. It's only because he's discarded his aces to be certain of getting a pair of twos. (Poker joke, geddit?)

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TL;DR: Lancaster's a poor coach.
 
Your an idiot if you think Lancaster is a poor coach, he's there for a reason, have some kind of faith you moron..
 
Crapspray I'll go through your post and pick out the key parts:

- Fail to nail a position on the wing - Ashton was playing well but was told to improve on his defence and didn't, got dropped. Nowell played well in his games. Brown and Foden swapped because Lancaster was looking for combinations initally and didn't like what he saw. Watson has done better than most on the right wing, a little raw. I'm also aware they pick Watson not just for now, but because they believe in a couple of years he could be one of the premier wingers if he continues developing. Foden has had bad injuries, May was decent actually in kick chase but poor in tackling. Combined he wasn't as ruthless on the international scene than he was at the club scene you can see why he was dropped. Tuilagi on the wing. You can see where I'm going with this.

- On Farrell and Ford... Booolllllocks. "blatant weaknesses", I'm not sure about that. Also your having some perceived idea there are players out there with a rounded skill set like a young carter at 10. There isn't a single player on the planet like that anymore, not one so don't bring that up. You only need to look at Pollard today to justify that statement. Ford's the best of the young generation of 10s (Yes Sopoaga I know) and Farrell's come on leaps and bounds. It's not his fault Flood wasn't happy at sharing the 10 spot, Wilko retired, Goode is too fat, Cipriani had mishaps, Slade about 2 years too early and probably a better centre than fly half. Again, Lancaster's picked from available.

- The switch of mentality you refer too is in part the change in personnel in the side and the fact Lancaster believes the build the house first (defence) so you pick the players to play that criteria, then you add the icing on the large house cake (attack). His selection policy leaves alot to be desired in certain aspects but he's kept the team pretty consistent and for the most part we've been pretty good, top 2 inches have been missing but that may or may not come.

- "Picking the best wingers he's got" - He's trying your criteria of looking to pick in form, whilst picking proven performers. He's also looking at the back 3 to be very good under the high ball as the primary skill. That immediately takes Roko, Wade, Ashton and Yarde out the equation and leaves Nowell, Foden, Brown, May, Watson (somewhat arguable) left over. His selection criteria he goes by means the selections he makes make sense. Whether you want to pick them differently is up to you but Ireland's dismantling of us with poor back 3 catchers, Goode, Watson and Nowell (Nowell actually did well but the other 2 were shocking)... you can now see why.

- I think Burgess was earmarked as England's 12 a long time ago regardless of his performances in the AP. They liked what they saw in the 2013 RWLC, he's a fantastic leader, offloader and tackler. Perfectly suited at 6 or 12 potentially. He discarded and chopped players over the years because they didn't perform, maybe they weren't good enough in the first place is another question but we can't just say there's automatically another international coming along. Webber, Goode, Twelvetrees, Burrell. All examples of this.

Inside centre is an issue period because I'd argue no one has stepped up to the plate once. I'd like to see Farrell get a role outside Ford at 10, I'd also like Burgess or Slade looked at 12 also. But Barritt has done a very solid job requested at 12, the others haven't really put there hand up.

He can only work with the hand given. Don't try and find flaws for the sake of it.
tbf, Roko is pretty good under the high ball- I have no idea what they don't like in his game.
Watching SBW this morning for the all blacks makes me pretty nervous about the prospect of Sam Burgess in the centres, who himself is even bigger/more lumbering than the former-
 
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