[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[TobesHodges]

Im a bit gutted for Jaime George not being in this team, considering he's probs the Form Hooker after the Front 2..

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Im a bit gutted for Jaime George not being in this team, considering he's probs the Form Hooker after the Front 2..

Maybe he is considered number 2 hooker and Webber and Dickie are fighting for the 3rd spot.

 

[ncurd]

Maybe he is considered number 2 hooker and Webber and Dickie are fighting for the 3rd spot.

Sound more likely, teams probably full of players trying to make the bench/plane (or those trying to prove fitness) than those competing for starting spots.

 

[ratsapprentice]

LCD gets a chance this week, George the next - according to the DT.

 

[yaboyjj]

It's a fair point RE the lineout- In international rugby, you'll be hard pushed to find as many options as Parling, Wood, Kruis and Clark in a single starting pack, If the lineout creaks here, it would be pretty damning for Webber (even if it is a makeshift side).

^ I think Launch is always percieved as a bit of a lightweight- he's relatively short for a lock and has weird trap insertions/narrow shoulders which makes him look smaller than he actually is- obviously powerful guy though and must lend a decent shove in the scrum (I haven't seen more recent photos though, so not sure if he's put on weight).
Are Corbs/Wood looking any bigger? You'd naturally think after the cardio intensive sessions, everyone would be smaller/leaner...

 

[RedruthRFC]

LCD gets a chance this week, George the next - according to the DT.

That's how I read it - Youngs has to start next week meaning it looks like it's between LCD and George to put their hand up for the third spot (anomalies aside). The papers have been suggesting that Webber is second in line for a week or two.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a fair point RE the lineout- In international rugby, you'll be hard pushed to find as many options as Parling, Wood, Kruis and Clark in a single starting pack, If the lineout creaks here, it would be pretty damning for Webber

Wait until LCD comes on for that! To be fair, I haven't seen him play all that much over the last season, but as a converted prop, it's a traditional weakness of his.

 

[goodNumber10]

Ha! Cipriani may as well just pack his bags and head off to France now.


I like the side as an experiment, looking forward to seeing if burgess can carry off Farrell's flat passing... Think he'll work better with Farrell than Ford as he'll get the ball a little earlier and coming forward not sideways.

Slade at 13 is interesting, I think we'll see him and Burgess interchange a lot more than we think, using Burgess as a carrier in the 13 channel worked for Bath, they'll be looking to hold the outside channel for May and Watson.

Should be interesting, though the only earn up hand that's gonna mean something is going to be against Ireland.

 

[ratsapprentice]

^ I think Launch is always percieved as a bit of a lightweight- he's relatively short for a lock and has weird trap insertions/narrow shoulders which makes him look smaller than he actually is- obviously powerful guy though and must lend a decent shove in the scrum (I haven't seen more recent photos though, so not sure if he's put on weight).

Maybe - he's not lacking a frame to hang some muscle on, just always looked a bit "immature" physically - going by eye I'd say his listing of 118kg is about right, looks 2-4kg heavier than he was.

LCD's throwing isn't fundamentally bad - he can throw straight and fast consistently, the timing and height of the throw lack the consistency of someone who's been throwing for 10 years however.

 

[Crapspray]

Annoyed, though not surprised, Clark is there. Scumbaggery aside, he's just a meh player - a nothing pick. Remember: we could have seen Itoje, Ewers, or Kvesic play. Or even Croft, since he was back in camp this week. But we've got Calum Cun... lark instead. Really making use of the warmups.

Bu... bu.. but he's super fit, and did really well in the fitness training! Well great; he can do a whole load of average. We've always lacked that in our flankers...

---

No running threat at 9 and 10 is going to make the assessment of Burgess at 12 a lot harder. It'll be like watching Tuilagi in 2013 all over again. I get Farrell and Wigglesworth, kind of, but together they really will provide a poor comparison to how Youngs and Ford will play.

Also nice to see that we've picked an inside centre at 23 and not, say, a winger or fullback. Not that a bench like that has cost England games in the past... I suppose that's what happens when you cut all your wingers prior to the warmups.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Annoyed, though not surprised, Clark is there. Scumbaggery aside, he's just a meh player - a nothing pick. Remember: we could have seen Itoje, Ewers, or Kvesic play. Or even Croft, since he was back in camp this week. But we've got Calum Cun... lark instead. Really making use of the warmups.

Bu... bu.. but he's super fit, and did really well in the fitness training! Well great; he can do a whole load of average. We've always lacked that in our flankers...

---

No running threat at 9 and 10 is going to make the assessment of Burgess at 12 a lot harder. It'll be like watching Tuilagi in 2013 all over again. I get Farrell and Wigglesworth, kind of, but together they really will provide a poor comparison to how Youngs and Ford will play.

Also nice to see that we've picked an inside centre at 23 and not, say, a winger or fullback. Not that a bench like that has cost England games in the past... I suppose that's what happens when you cut all your wingers prior to the warmups.

I assume you've not watched much of Clark. He really deserves his chance and has had an awesome season outplaying wood for all of it.

He has a great rucking game and physicality England have really missed.

His disgraceful actions aside he deserves his chance with England. More than itoje....yes as Clark has shown more than one seasons form (under Lancasters rules).

More deserving than kvesic ? I don't know, kvesic is a lot of people's wet dream on here but has he shown what Lancaster is looking for?

Or do we not play him at 7 just incase he out performed captain in droppable? Who knows!

 

[TobesHodges]

Annoyed, though not surprised, Clark is there. Scumbaggery aside, he's just a meh player - a nothing pick. Remember: we could have seen Itoje, Ewers, or Kvesic play. Or even Croft, since he was back in camp this week. But we've got Calum Cun... lark instead. Really making use of the warmups.

Bu... bu.. but he's super fit, and did really well in the fitness training! Well great; he can do a whole load of average. We've always lacked that in our flankers...

---

No running threat at 9 and 10 is going to make the assessment of Burgess at 12 a lot harder. It'll be like watching Tuilagi in 2013 all over again. I get Farrell and Wigglesworth, kind of, but together they really will provide a poor comparison to how Youngs and Ford will play.

Also nice to see that we've picked an inside centre at 23 and not, say, a winger or fullback. Not that a bench like that has cost England games in the past... I suppose that's what happens when you cut all your wingers prior to the warmups.

Mr Cynical, I was chuckling so much reading this post. You dont like Clark, ok, no need to verbally destroy a man who has clearly got much much further than you could ever imagine in the game of rugby.

I think saying that the Half-Backs that have got a team to 3 Premiership finals (Won 2) and a Heinken Cup final in 3 Seasons are poor and pose no thereat is slightly harsh, don't you think?

Though I do agree with your last statement, you should have a Outside back at 23

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mr Cynical, I was chuckling so much reading this post. You dont like Clark, ok, no need to verbally destroy a man who has clearly got much much further than you could ever imagine in the game of rugby.

D

Yep certainly after that verbal onslaught Clark will need a shoulder to cry on.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Clark will need a shoulder to cry on.

You think anyone in their right mind would let him near their arm!?

 

[TobesHodges]

You think anyone in their right mind would let him near their arm!?

:lol::lol:

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You think anyone in their right mind would let him near their arm!?

It was why he had to try and rip off someone else's.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Callum "Toquinho" Clark.

amirite? :lol:

 

[Crapspray]

I assume you've not watched much of Clark. He really deserves his chance and has had an awesome season outplaying wood for all of it.

Wood was gash for the first half of the season. The only time he looked anything like his old self was about March onwards. Outplaying him really shouldn't have been tough for any decent premiership flanker.

He has a great rucking game and physicality England have really missed.

And yet you're picking a player almost exactly the same height and weight as the other three flankers in the squad.

As I've said earlier, he's simply not in the same league as a Ewers or Fearns-type backrower. He lacks the size. He does have dog, you're right, but I'd back someone like Ewers of Fearns to smash him in the tackle no matter how hard he tried. His breakdown work is not on par with dedicated fetchers.

His disgraceful actions aside he deserves his chance with England. More than itoje....yes as Clark has shown more than one seasons form (under Lancasters rules).

What do we learn from playing him? We learn nothing tactically - he's exactly the same type of player as the three other flankers in the squad. He's shown no sign of major potential. He'll -at best- be a journeyman flanker. And a couple of caps in warmups are not going to give him bags of experience. Nor is he capable of covering lock or number 8.

Furthermore, for how many seasons does a player have to play well before getting picked? I'd say former, JWC winning captain of the U20s having a great season, looking comfortable in domestic and european playoffs would be enough personally. Lancaster did it with Launchbury in 2012 and he was the standout forward of that autumn.

More deserving than kvesic ? I don't know, kvesic is a lot of people's wet dream on here but has he shown what Lancaster is looking for?

No, because he's two inches too short and a stone and a half too light. But he's looked very good when he has played for England (was it 29 tackles on debut?), and has shone in lower-table sides. He also offers a tactical option: say Robshaw and Wood are destroyed against Wales - Tipuric and Warburton have a field day - what change will Clark and Haskell bring prior to Australia?

Or do we not play him at 7 just incase he out performed captain in droppable? Who knows!

One could say the same with Kvesic. The easy accusation is that, if picked, he would expose Lancaster's fetish for 6.5s as one of the biggest weaknesses the pack have.

2016 we should really be looking at a starting point of:

6. Ewers
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

19. Itoje
20. Binny

Mr Cynical, I was chuckling so much reading this post. You dont like Clark, ok, no need to verbally destroy a man who has clearly got much much further than you could ever imagine in the game of rugby.

You've got me: I'm jealous. That's the only reason I have for criticising him. And I said nasty things about him on the internet! One short step before I inflict GBH - though will it be headbutting or arm-breaking?

I think saying that the Half-Backs that have got a team to 3 Premiership finals (Won 2) and a Heinken Cup final in 3 Seasons are poor and pose no thereat is slightly harsh, don't you think?

Nothing to do with the pack then? I seem to recall Sarries losing to Saints and Toulon last year, and Clermont this year, because their pack was stopped. The twin threat of Farrell and Wigglesworth were worth about the square root of **** all then.

Though I do agree with your last statement, you should have a Outside back at 23

One out of three ain't bad.

 

[j'nuh]

1. Vunipola - Good.
2. Webber - Good.
3. Brookes - Good.
4. Kruis - Wasted cap. He's behind Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood and Parling at the very least, very unlikely to appear at the WC.
5. Parling - Good.
6. Wood - Decent. Not a massive fan of Wood, but whatever I think of it, Lancaster has invested time in him. Lancaster's mistake is to not give time to others earlier on.
7. Clark - Terrible. Offers the same as the other flankers but has less experience. Unlikely to be used at the WC, so probably a wasted cap too.
8. Morgan - Good.
9. Wigglesworth - Good. Not a fan, but he's going to the WC and needs time.
10. Farrell - Good.
11. May - Good.
12. Burgess - Terrible, for reasons that have been discussed.
13. Slade - Ambivalent. On one hand, I like him and I'm glad he has a chance. On the other hand, I am frustrated that Lancaster didn't already introduce him in the Six Nations. It's this kind of lack of forward planning that makes Lancaster so frustrating as a selector. He's nearly always a test window behind the general consensus.
14. Watson - Good.
15. Goode - Meh. Lancaster has invested in him, so I suppose there is that. But he's not an international player. Foden is really experienced so I'd have liked to have seen him given a go.

16. LCD - Good. Would prefer George, but I guess George will be tested later on.
17. Corbisiero - Too out of form for me.
18. Wilson - Good.
19. Attwood - Good.
20. Haskell - Good, I guess. (Not the biggest fan, but he's integrated at least.)
21. Care - Good. Our best 9 when in form, would like to see a bit of him to see whether he's regained that form.
22. Cipriani - Good.
23. Twelvetrees - Don't think we have the time to be wasting on Twelvetrees. Assuming Joseph to start, 10. Ford/Farrell 12. Barritt/Burrell has 4 different combinations that need to be tested. 6 combinations if you include Cipriani. More if you throw in the scrum-half. Gelling is important and I'd prefer we kept to the players we plan on using.

 

[kesh]

That's good news. It'll distract us from the Lancaster argument that we've all had before and our positions which really aren't going to budge... but until that point -



I might go so far as to call Ashton the single biggest failure of Lancaster on a player to date; not only has he picked a player on very average performances (to be kind) for a looooong time, blocking development like mad, but he's also taken a guy who showed the ability to really play well at international level and wrecked him despite him being in his prime. It's almost quite impressive in a way.

To gibber on for a bit.

I feel with Ashton that it almost inevitable that he'd progress the way he did as a winger. His came into Union all billy big ******; has pace, is bred to sit on someone's (anyone's) shoulder anywhere on the pitch if necessary and to always be looking for gaps in the field. He initially just wants to know where to stand at kick off, get involved, with a little bit of positional awareness, has great success with this and as is the want of anyone / any coach / fellow player you're going to hear: "Hey, that try was great BUT you missed that tackle / left me isolated / gave away field position because etc etc" as this is your livelihood and you want to improve, plus you've got nothing better to do but train and "iron out" these mistakes in your game learning to assimilate. So instead of just playing, doing and reacting you now have that great crime which is the want of all professional athletes -- thinking. Then you're stuck in two minds with eyes on you in bad form, especially when you're sat way out on a wing with barely anything to do all game.

It's kinda lucky he was arrogant/thick enough to not listen to people for a time. It's not like he could wear earplugs in training or fain being deaf in his prime years.

And the backs is just a riot. I mean, again, it depends slightly on how you define squandered. Do we blame Lancaster for failing to keep Tuilagi disciplined and missing a World Cup? That'd be harsh, I guess. Is Cipriani squandered as he hasn't started a game under Lancaster? Was Flood squandered? How about Charlie Hodgson? When Lancaster started the job, Ugo Monye was a test Lion with serious pace, strong defence, power in contact, good in the air with 13 England caps... and Monye's just retired with 14. That he got against Fiji. I'd call that talent squandered.

For Joe Simpson to only have one test cap by this age is a gigantic squandering of talent, although arguably by his club coaches rather than Lancaster. I don't think I'll ever understand why Matthew Tait hasn't been involved or why Burns has gone from start in NZ to not even in Saxons' squads in a year. It's three years since Foden played full-back for England. Obviously Wade not being more involved is really annoying. And debatably every inside-centre we've picked has had their talent squandered, again depending on how you define it (ditto Yarde and Roko)...

What I'm taking away from this is -
a) The backs have been really problematic
b) The entire England system just loves to waste talent; it's nuts that none of Youngs, Care or Simpson has got to the standard required or looks like ever doing so and while the national coach deserves some blame, there's been a whole lotta other people coaching them.

Anyway. Who's now feeling somewhat alarmed at the prospect of Australia having a pack?

Less squandered more just how it goes. There is only 7 positions to fill, 5 taking the half-backs out and a lot of centres and wingers in form-flux with only a few test matches to slot them in. Like a kid at a pick 'n mix with only 20 pence to spend, Lancaster has mixed it more then the days of sticking with Hape, Tindall, and (couldn't score) Cueto lumps. It's a good problem and England have progressed albeit in a problematic way.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just seen that Pennell is training with England this week - is this a new development, or has he been knocking around for a while like Foden?

Seems strange that they've (unofficially) brought two more 15s into the squad - still question marks over Brown's concussion issues?