England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[Nudger]

....did you stop reading my post part way through?

None of those should be playing 8 this tour, realistically,
Only one is really an international class 8 and he's as injury prone as it's possible to be, we need to be looking at as many options as we can

 

[Nudger]

....did you stop reading my post part way through?

None of those should be playing 8 this tour, realistically,
Only one is really an international class 8 and he's as injury prone as it's possible to be, we need to be looking at as many options as we can

I just think those three are better

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-england-men/squads/tom-curry/

RFU website has Tom Curry at 99kgs. Albeit he's only 19 and so has time to fill out and not test level weight yet, but plenty of time to do so, although unlikely to fill out to the 105-110kgs needed for next year's RWC.

I hope we see a back row of Curry, Shields, Binny v SA. Shields and Binny to do the hard yards, leaving Curry to concentrate on what fetcher does.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why does an openside have to be 110kg?

This is gonna turn into another Matt Tait where their natural talent is ruined by people obsessed with getting them as bulky as possible.

There's a good chance he will get that heavy in the future because he's very young and getting noticeably bigger every season, but to not pick an openside because they don't fit some arbitrary cookie cutter shape we want is what's got us in this backrow mess in the first place.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Why does an openside have to be 110kg?

This is gonna turn into another Matt Tait where their natural talent is ruined by people obsessed with getting them as bulky as possible

I am going by what Steve Hansen said about Ardie Savea - he started out at 95kgs back in 2013 and ABs are getting him up to 106kgs as his best test level weight. Sam Cane started out at 101kgs back in 2012 and is now 109kgs.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11920255

I think below is the key sentences in bold:

But again, size for size sake is not the aim. The likes of Cane, Savea, Coles and Retallick have all increased in weight without losing any mobility, speed or endurance capacity.

The coaches want them to be more explosive and effective in the collisions, but they also need their players to be able to cope with the speed of the game the All Blacks play and the aerobic demands.

So it is a case of working with each athlete to find that sweet spot - where they can up-size without compromising their ability to do their core role.

Just saying it's a fact of life at test level that players are getting heavier. It's an arms race unfortunately and yes talent, ball playing skills have to be allied to it.

 

[curtbob7]

I don't think Curry is that far off tbh, around 103-104KG should do it. Just look at Michael Hooper.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Savea is 5 years older, 2inches taller and only a couple of kg more than Curry, It's not like Curry is some shrinking violet

I'm biased but I think he's definitely physical enough for international rugby. I've never seen him beasted* in the prem and there's some big boys in the packs here


*no more than any other forward gets crunched by the likes of Waldrom/Binny in full flight etc

 

[ratsapprentice]

He may well end up being too light, but that won't* be judged on the scale, it'll be based on his effect on the field.

Simmonds is 20kg~ lighter than Robshaw - who's the more powerful carrier?


*You'd ******* hope so anyway...

 

[Big_Grumper]

Hey Trinder proved the theory.

First new cherry and white to play for England since 2013 and was key in two of the barbarians tries and offered nothing in attack in his time on the pitch.

As much as your dislike of Glaws irritates me I can't help but agree with you. Trinny was unlucky with the HIA assessment but hardly covered himself in glory during those opening 20 mins.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wikipedia lists Curry as 102 kg. That's just over 16 stone and as Olyy says he'll naturally bulk up.

He needs to have sufficient physical power - but he seems to coping OK with the AP as a teenager so I think he'll be fine in that respect. A lot more important is unit balance and how he's deployed.

 

[Nudger]

http://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-england-men/squads/tom-curry/

RFU website has Tom Curry at 99kgs. Albeit he's only 19 and so has time to fill out and not test level weight yet, but plenty of time to do so, although unlikely to fill out to the 105-110kgs needed for next year's RWC.

I hope we see a back row of Curry, Shields, Binny v SA. Shields and Binny to do the hard yards, leaving Curry to concentrate on what fetcher does.

You could play shields and isoije? And Simmonds that would allow Simmonds a free roll to roam

 

[Nudger]

As much as your dislike of Glaws irritates me I can't help but agree with you. Trinny was unlucky with the HIA assessment but hardly covered himself in glory during those opening 20 mins.

Got to agree and wanted trinder to have g Is chance also Robson got a lot of **** for not tackling baba centres but where the f--- were our centres??

 

[ratsapprentice]

You could play shields and isoije? And Simmonds that would allow Simmonds a free roll to roam

Is that Itoje's Japanese cousin?

Itoje shouldn't be played as a back-rower IMO.

Don't think Simmonds can be used as a starting 8 until the rest of the pack has sufficient carrying power in the tight.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Is Robshaws workrate actually any higher than the alternatives? I recall in the 6N it was highlighted that far from being the workhorse, he was actually slow and not making as many tackles or hitting as many rucks as other forwards. We cannot have any dead wood going into the WC, experience only counts for something when you are still performing. The squad that won the world cup have tons of experience and a winning mentality, doesn't mean we would want any of them on the field now. Robshaw, Brown and Cole have all lacked pace around the park and are clinging on for "unseen work", "experience" or just being "reliable". If they can't deliver the things that are their reason for being retained then what reason is there to retain them?

Jones set out from the start to build a core of players in the team as all successful teams do that. The difference is in successful teams the core are there consistently because they are just better than the alternatives, they aren't there because someone has decided they need to be there.

Yes. And no.

In addition to the 3 you mention there's also Hartley. That's the core of Jones side and experience does count at RWCs, so I don't think he can chuck all 4 out. A further complication is that none of them could be considered as finishers.

Hartley should be one to go for the reasons many have long argued for. There are credible alternatives and injury may force that situation anyway.

A rested Cole should probably still start. No-one's made a totally convincing case for displacing him and if his scrummaging's up to scratch he stays. It's a compromise, but one I can reluctantly live with.

Robshaw just looks like he's shot. He's had his day and we have good alternatives as a straight replacements or different balances we can try. Either way it should be thanks and goodbye.

I've done a bit of a flip on Brown. Drives me nuts, but in a tight knockout game who do you want under the high ball or as the last of defence. Watson? I'd be behind the sofa. Cips? Don't make me laugh. Woodward? Possibly although not wholly convinced and he's not on the plane to SA. Unless someone really excels over the next year he stays.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Slightly more reluctant than you on Cole, and understand your position on Brown, but don't entirely agree on the supposed pitfalls of the alternatives.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

As much as your dislike of Glaws irritates me I can't help but agree with you. Trinny was unlucky with the HIA assessment but hardly covered himself in glory during those opening 20 mins.

If it makes you feel better I pretty much dislike all Prem clubs, even dislike the majority of Tigers fans.



RE Cole
I'm very interested to see how Cole gets on after a full pre-season off as well as still being fully fit. Still IMO THE best scrummaging TH's we have, hopefully the rest will help him rediscover some of his former loose stuff especially in defence.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Woodward, Francis and Hughes replace Redpath, Te'o and Willis

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Woodward, Francis and Hughes replace Redpath, Te'o and Willis

Hughes (with his current fitness level) over Mercer is a poor call. Good to see Woodward going. Te'o's physicality will be missed.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Woodward, Francis and Hughes replace Redpath, Te'o and Willis

Yes Woodward! I hope this doesn't mean he plays centre or fly half or some stupid **** though

 

[ratsapprentice]

Very glad to see Jason go.

Black Hawk Down is one of my favourite films.