England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[NickBD]

Reading the response from the media about Goode and Ashton over the weekend has been infuriating.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Reading the response from the media about Goode and Ashton over the weekend has been infuriating.

Infuriating, and infuriatingly predictable.

Anyone have access to Barnes' article in the Times?
Basically saying what some of us having been saying about Robshaw, going by the ***le...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Infuriating, and infuriatingly predictable.

Anyone have access to Barnes' article in the Times?
Basically saying what some of us having been saying about Robshaw, going by the ***le...

Pretty much is.

"Robshaw looked like the last place that he would want to play would be on quick pitches at altitude. "

Some of the comments are funny though.
Some suggesting Wray should be in the Squad LOL.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You got a copypasta?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

He's known as the man who does the unseen work. Not yesterday. Chris Robshaw was centre stage in the afternoon sunshine, one of the most prominent players in the game. Nine tries scored; he had a decisive role in five of them. Unfortunately I'm talking about tries for the Barbarians.

England's co-captain set an example that will see them slaughtered if it is repeated on their three-match tour to South Africa next month. Sure, you will have heard and spoken about the magic of the Barbarians and the offloading excellence of Semi Radradra, Chris Ashton's hat-trick and the Tongan Bear, Loni Uhila, and yes, let's celebrate the spirit of the Barbarians. They produced some phenomenal stuff for a good-humoured end-of-season crowd. The problem is that this was anything but an end-of-season match for England.

There were no caps and it lacked Test intensity but it remained an opportunity to examine a few systems, to check on the form of a few players, to blow away the cobwebs for Englishmen who have not played for a few weeks. Robshaw was one of these players whose club's mediocrity left the 31-year-old rested or short of game time, depending on your point of view. I don't know about the cobwebs but he was blowing all right.

Radradra left him for dead within the first few minutes. Mike Brown, Robshaw's fellow Harlequin, was exposed for his own lack of pace on the left wing as Josua Tuisova accelerated away and Ashton was handed the first of his three tries.

"We didn't start the game well," George Ford, the team's other co-captain, said. Missing one-on-one tackles is a pretty clear reason for the rotten start that England made. Ford continued, "We'll have to have a good look at that because we can't play like that."

So what else will Eddie Jones and the squad see when the forensic analysis of this game is complete? First, the positive news on the part of the former England captain. In the space of ten minutes, from the 47th to 57th minute, Robshaw won two strong turnovers. Often criticised in this aspect of the game, his technique was good, while he stole some decent lineout ball. Ten tremendous minutes.

Then there's the, for once, all too obvious roles played in the tries. Five key missed tackles equates to 35 points. Some useful lineouts and a few jackals but the negatives massively outweigh the positives. At this level, if opposing runners get behind a team they will cause damage. The Barbarians will be more relaxed and confident in the offload than a South Africa team under the national spotlight but the Springboks have players with pace and a familiarity for the fast grounds.

Robshaw looked like the last place that he would want to play would be on quick pitches at altitude. The second try was the result of an initial missed tackle; the explanation, a combination of tackling too high and just being too slow. In an age of thoroughbreds he is more shire horse.

For the third try, he drifted behind the first line of defence and could not get to the ball ahead of the Barbarian hand. Hard to lay certain blame here but it was only last November against Australia that he was getting himself into just these sorts of try-saving positions. He looks to have lost a metre of pace in the past six months. That or Jones's training left him heavy-legged going into the game.

Finn Russell waltzed outside him to create the fourth try. It continued in the second half as he was again beaten for pure pace, Radradra once more the beneficiary of sub-standard defending. With the hour mark nearing, he was astonishingly left trailing on the ground once more as Malakai Fekitoa shrugged and muscled his way past the most porous defensive wall put up in many a long year by England.#

You can argue all you want about the merits of the Harlequin's unseen work but these five missed tackles are hard fact. Paul Gustard has some serious work to do when he quits his role as England defence coach to take over at Harlequins.

But back to England. If there is any other purpose to the Barbarians game than a gentle welcome to Eddie's England world, Robshaw must be in danger of being dropped. Jones loves his undoubted work rate. He lasted the 80 minutes yesterday but bar that gilded ten minutes, he may as well not have been on the field.

There has to be more than plodding from breakdown to breakdown and marking the fringes, an arm out to the right or to the left. There has to be dynamism. Billy Vunipola's return will make a huge difference to the ball-carrying intensity but against big South Africans and at energy-sapping altitude he cannot do it alone.

Tom Curry showed promise. He was eager and accomplished. In a side with slipping standards he stood out, but predominantly at the breakdown. He doesn't run with the ball. Brad Shields appeared to take a giant stride towards Test rugby without donning a white shirt.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...shaw-in-the-age-of-the-thoroughbred-q0z3097h2

Good Article IMO. Harsh but needs to be.

 

[ratsapprentice]

In an age of thoroughbreds he is more shire horse.
There has to be more than plodding from breakdown to breakdown and marking the fringes, an arm out to the right or to the left. There has to be dynamism. Billy Vunipola's return will make a huge difference to the ball-carrying intensity but against big South Africans and at energy-sapping altitude he cannot do it alone.

Major points.

 

[NickBD]

Infuriating, and infuriatingly predictable.

Anyone have access to Barnes' article in the Times?
Basically saying what some of us having been saying about Robshaw, going by the ***le...

I know, should have expected it. I saw the BBC Sonya reporter almost bragging to EJ after the game. Forget the fact he plays in France, terrible disciplinary issues, refusing to be picked for the Saxons, his poor England form when he was selected and most important his awful defending in which he showed how poor it is in this very game.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Even as a huge lover of Robshaw, he was poor yesterday. IMO, he should start the first game in SA, with Shields on the bench, Shields can come on and we will really see if he is going to be the right guy to take up Robos mantle.

I do have a sneaking suspicion however that Eddie might see them as the 6/7 combo for the world cup.

Robshaw/Curry first test Billy 8

Shields/Curry second test Mercer 8

Robshaw/Shields third test Billy 8

 

[ratsapprentice]

Even as a huge lover of Robshaw, he was poor yesterday. IMO, he should start the first game in SA,

He should be resigned to squad backup, IMO.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

He should be resigned to squad backup, IMO.

As **** as he was, he has still proven time and time again that he can go and do a job. A bit like Brown, he is reliable if not exciting. A couple games where he is playing poorly does not negate that he has been one of the most consistent (even without being exctiting) players in an england shirt over the past few years.

If his consistency is proved to be completely gone in SA, then drop him, but he has done enough for England that it would be naive not to give him another go

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I know, should have expected it. I saw the BBC Sonya reporter almost bragging to EJ after the game. Forget the fact he plays in France, terrible disciplinary issues, refusing to be picked for the Saxons, his poor England form when he was selected and most important his awful defending in which he showed how poor it is in this very game.

Has anyone from that Tour gone onto something International wise?

 

[ratsapprentice]

As **** as he was, he has still proven time and time again that he can go and do a job. A bit like Brown, he is reliable if not exciting. A couple games where he is playing poorly does not negate that he has been one of the most consistent (even without being exctiting) players in an england shirt over the past few years.

If his consistency is proved to be completely gone in SA, then drop him, but he has done enough for England that it would be naive not to give him another go

He has proven himself to be consistent.

He consistently has a high workrate, but has always been slow and lacking in physicality. I don't think that's acceptable.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

He has proven himself to be consistent.

He consistently has a high workrate, but has always been slow and lacking in physicality. I don't think that's acceptable.

So I think Eddie will try out the 3 combinations I listed to see which ones utilise that workrate best and which hide the lack of pace and physicality... Either way, SA will result in him becoming legitimately undroppable pre Japan or see him dropped to a reserve figure.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The only thing Robshaw's got over the others is international experience. And right now he's clogging up a shirt preventing others from getting it. Jones is paid the big money to make the big decisions and this is one he needs to make, now.

Bit more sanguine about Brown. Playing him on the wing can only have been as a bail out option if Daly went wrong. But the main thing you want from a 15 is solidity and for all the running threat of a Daly or a Watson, Brown continues to be the most reassuring presence at the back by a mile.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How about a back row of
6. Gibson
7. Armand
8. Wray
?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

How about a back row of
6. Gibson
7. Armand
8. Wray
?

How about no

 

[ratsapprentice]

So I think Eddie will try out the 3 combinations I listed to see which ones utilise that workrate best and which hide the lack of pace and physicality... Either way, SA will result in him becoming legitimately undroppable pre Japan or see him dropped to a reserve figure.

I don't think he has a workrate notably higher than the top potential alternatives - I don't think there's any need to try and cover it up.
Shields and Wilson are similar players to Robshaw - except they're also very good athletes.

As OH said, the only thing he has over the other options is experience.

 

[ratsapprentice]

How about a back row of
6. Gibson
7. Armand
8. Wray
?

And a side order of fries?*

*For Steffon.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Is Robshaws workrate actually any higher than the alternatives? I recall in the 6N it was highlighted that far from being the workhorse, he was actually slow and not making as many tackles or hitting as many rucks as other forwards. We cannot have any dead wood going into the WC, experience only counts for something when you are still performing. The squad that won the world cup have tons of experience and a winning mentality, doesn't mean we would want any of them on the field now. Robshaw, Brown and Cole have all lacked pace around the park and are clinging on for "unseen work", "experience" or just being "reliable". If they can't deliver the things that are their reason for being retained then what reason is there to retain them?

Jones set out from the start to build a core of players in the team as all successful teams do that. The difference is in successful teams the core are there consistently because they are just better than the alternatives, they aren't there because someone has decided they need to be there.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Heres something in terms of ability our England Captain is 5th choice at best.....

1. George
2. Cowan-Dickie
3. Taylor
4. Singleton