England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[Vieux Talonneur]

Youngs, Farrell, Brown, Barritt, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode, if I remember correctly.

Good day.

You do! And all still playing....

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Youngs, Farrell, Brown, Barritt, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode, if I remember correctly.

Good day.

You do! And all still playing....

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I agree with this. Crashball rugby can be effective but it's incredibly attritional; look at the injury rate. The problem EJ has is that it's very difficult to try something a bit different when your international opponents are lining up with big, beefy 95kg lads in the midfield against you. Sunday was a case in point: Trinny and Francis were giving away 2 or 3 stones in weight against the Baa Baas.

Agree with what you're saying but 95 is hardly big and beefy. Farrell's 96. Ben Youngs is 92.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree with this. Crashball rugby can be effective but it's incredibly attritional; look at the injury rate. The problem EJ has is that it's very difficult to try something a bit different when your international opponents are lining up with big, beefy 95kg lads in the midfield against you. Sunday was a case in point: Trinny and Francis were giving away 2 or 3 stones in weight against the Baa Baas.

It's not the size that matters, it's how it's used. Crashball failed for Wales because they would just plop the ball out to Roberts and the aim was that he would simply run at the nearest defender he could see to tie in the defence, quickly recycle and then off they go. That worked for a bit until it became predictable and Roberts would be gang tackled and the recycled ball would be slow. The Barbarians were good because their big players would actively avoid direct contact, they would go for gaps all the time. England's bigger runners aren't used like this, they are used to run into brick walls. Had the Barbarians used their big guys to look for contact, England would have held them out without too much trouble. Likewise this is why England's attack has faltered in recent years, they know that the 1 out forward is never going to look for the gap or offload, they are going to look to crash into contact and recycle. It can still work but you need to get in and secure your own ball quickly. England have played crash ball but with our players fanned out in a way more suitable for a fast paced game where you keep the ball alive. It's the worst of both worlds.

We don't necessarily need players in the centres who are big and powerful, we need players who show some intelligence and hit good lines. George Ford running a good line at a gap between 2 large players will achieve far more than Tuilagi running directly at 2 defenders set and ready to hit him.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Semi and Josua are both closer to 110kg and Tuisova in particular, is a genuinely freakish athlete.

And I completely agree with Rangerancher - Radradra and Fekitoa used their speed more than they did strength to make linebreaks.

England's use of Manu before he started to get injured was horribly frustrating - they just played "give it Manu". No dummy runs, no creating space with or for him... just use his brute power.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Maybe it's blind optimism (Which it is) but I still feel Manu will get back to his best sooner or later.

He looked the freshest I have seen him v Sale.
IMO he's still around 10KG too heavy still but I do have faith.

 

[Big_Grumper]

It's not the size that matters, it's how it's used. Crashball failed for Wales because they would just plop the ball out to Roberts and the aim was that he would simply run at the nearest defender he could see to tie in the defence, quickly recycle and then off they go. That worked for a bit until it became predictable and Roberts would be gang tackled and the recycled ball would be slow. The Barbarians were good because their big players would actively avoid direct contact, they would go for gaps all the time. England's bigger runners aren't used like this, they are used to run into brick walls. Had the Barbarians used their big guys to look for contact, England would have held them out without too much trouble. Likewise this is why England's attack has faltered in recent years, they know that the 1 out forward is never going to look for the gap or offload, they are going to look to crash into contact and recycle. It can still work but you need to get in and secure your own ball quickly. England have played crash ball but with our players fanned out in a way more suitable for a fast paced game where you keep the ball alive. It's the worst of both worlds.

We don't necessarily need players in the centres who are big and powerful, we need players who show some intelligence and hit good lines. George Ford running a good line at a gap between 2 large players will achieve far more than Tuilagi running directly at 2 defenders set and ready to hit him.

OK, my numbers were a bit out - give or take 15 Kg - but I take yours and Toby's point.

The point I was trying to make was that, despite picking two players (in Trinny & Francis) who have worked good lines in club rugby to varying effect, from a defensive perspective they didn't react quick enough when it was done to them. They left gaps and on the occasion where contact was made they were too light/slight to register an effective tackle.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a lightweight midfield if that's what you plan for/around
Jones pretty clearly wants Teo there and just plugs the gap with anyone else when he's injured.

Similar to the backrow, he wants Binny and when Binny isn't there he just asks someone else to be him, instead of being themselves and changing the plan.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

OK, my numbers were a bit out - give or take 15 Kg - but I take yours and Toby's point.

The point I was trying to make was that, despite picking two players (in Trinny & Francis) who have worked good lines in club rugby to varying effect, from a defensive perspective they didn't react quick enough when it was done to them. They left gaps and on the occasion where contact was made they were too light/slight to register an effective tackle.

You don't pick someone just because they're big, but all other things being pretty much equal the perennial law of the jungle is that a good big one will always beat a good little one.

Our back line is crying out for a serious power upgrade, doubly so given how passive many of our forwards are with ball in hand. Playmakers are all well and good, but as we've seen they're not so clever on the back foot. As with the back row and everywhere else it's about balance - with no Manu and now no Teo in SA surely Jones is missing a trick in not taking Big Joe?

 

[Nudger]

I don't really care how big they are as long as they can tackle Neil Back proves the point
6 7 12 and 13 should be the best tackles in the team

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

IMO 4,6,12 should be the best tacklers.

7 and 13 should be fast enough to force the pressure on the opposition 9 and 10 and the opposition 13 and 14.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't really care how big they are as long as they can tackle Neil Back proves the point
6 7 12 and 13 should be the best tackles in the team

Loved Back to bits but he quit Eng duty 15 years ago. Game's changed massively. Kvesic was supposed to be the heir apparent and where's he now? Seemingly stuffed by his lack of physicality.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Bruce Craig and Eddie Jones sniping at each other over injuries in England camp

 

[curtbob7]

Loved Back to bits but he quit Eng duty 15 years ago. Game's changed massively. Kvesic was supposed to be the heir apparent and where's he now? Seemingly stuffed by his lack of physicality.

I hate that the laws have stifled the careers of the Kvesic type player.

 

[Which Tyler]

Bruce Craig and Eddie Jones sniping at each other over injuries in England camp

Given Bath's injury list over the last 2 seasons, Bruce needs to shut his hole

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Given Bath's injury list over the last 2 seasons, Bruce needs to shut his hole

This. If it was a club with few injuries and England camp making up a disproportionate amount of them then fair enough but we have been breaking players all over the park ourselves. Bruce Craig should really shut up.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This. If it was a club with few injuries and England camp making up a disproportionate amount of them then fair

Steve Diamond vs Eddie Jones in Twickenham car park over the injuries to both Currys and Solomona while in England training

"The rumble in the cabbage patch"

 

[ratsapprentice]

Loved Back to bits but he quit Eng duty 15 years ago. Game's changed massively. Kvesic was supposed to be the heir apparent and where's he now? Seemingly stuffed by his lack of physicality.

Supposed.

...Supposed lack of physiciality.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...ck-bath-owner-bruce-craig-criticism-training/

Telegraph's take on Jones v Craig. One way or another this doesn't feel like it's going to end well.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I hope it forces the issue and the clubs are shat on from a great height.