England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[ratsapprentice]

Ahh, for some reason I thought that Vesty was on the 2017 Argentina tour... but it was Ella.

The difference between England under Jones with/without Ella is marked.

Like.... fo realsies....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ahh, for some reason I thought that Vesty was on the 2017 Argentina tour... but it was Ella.

The difference between England under Jones with/without Ella is marked.

Like.... fo realsies....

Vesty was on the argentina tour he was skills coach.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just for the tour? So just as the coach / players are starting to get used to each other they fly home. Positive move of sorts, but I'm not reading anything to suggest that this individual will be anything other than short term. Which means it's of limited value. Still, no hurry, there's more than a year to the RWC.

Frankly I'd have thought that finding a Borthwick replacement to sort out our pack was a higher priority.

 

[Big_Grumper]

Frankly I'd have thought that finding a Borthwick replacement to sort out our pack was a higher priority.

Agreed. There's no point coaching the backline if we're going to lose ball at the breakdown.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Don't need to replace Borthwick but we looked better with Smith helping us there as a consultant so why not now.

In fact during the Aus 2016 tour didn't we have like
Eddie
Gustard
Borthwick
Hatley
Ella
Smith
Andrew Johns who helped with the 10's.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Agreed. There's no point coaching the backline if we're going to lose ball at the breakdown.

To be fair that can't be pinned completely on Borthwick. Ultimately Eddie selects the team, so if he's selected no 7 and 3 locks then Borthwick can only make do with what he's got. Beyond that, it seems like our attacking system revolves heavily around forwards running dummy lines or being used to put in small pop passes to the extent that there are none left to hit the breakdown. Again, this isn't Borthwick's fault, it's the fault of the attacking system that doesn't accomodate the fact that all 15 players can't be in the back line. Again, this can be pinned on EJ who is the attack coach.

I'm not calling for EJ's head; he's clearly an excellent man manager and should keep the Head Coach role but he needs to hand over the attacking berth to someone else.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To be fair that can't be pinned completely on Borthwick. Ultimately Eddie selects the team, so if he's selected no 7 and 3 locks then Borthwick can only make do with what he's got. Beyond that, it seems like our attacking system revolves heavily around forwards running dummy lines or being used to put in small pop passes to the extent that there are none left to hit the breakdown. Again, this isn't Borthwick's fault, it's the fault of the attacking system that doesn't accomodate the fact that all 15 players can't be in the back line. Again, this can be pinned on EJ who is the attack coach.

Well true, but our forward failings have been blinking obvious. If Borthwick has been consistently unable to persuade Jones to address then I'd argue he hasn't got the gravitas for the job. Similarly, part of Jones' job is to listen to his senior lieutenants who know the specific detail while he concentrates on the whole. How much that happens, who knows?

he's clearly an excellent man manager

I suspect there may be a great many who'll disagree with that. He's different and not afraid to stir things up, which is fine, but there's got to be more substance than my way or the highway and good sound bites. His track record of a year or two here and a year or two there isn't exactly empire building and maybe suggests he struggles to retain confidence once that initial shock value has subsided. I'm not calling for his head either, but I think that some of his early results flattered him. Good coach, but not the messiah.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Borthwick was a specialist lineout coach who sort of merged into a forwards coach, which he doesn't look qualified for.
No qualms about keeping borthwick on but we either need a full on forwards coach or a specialist breakdown coach (like we did with Smith for a few months)
We've already got a scrum coach so having specialists for each aspect of the game could work, though equally could be too many cooks spoiling the broth

 

[curtbob7]

RFU missed an absolute trick not getting Cockerill in IMO. Scots have got him well within their sights now.

Couldve been national forwards coach/ Jones understudy?

Would Exeters forward coach fancy it? I do like the idea of specialists though as mentioned with Smith doing breakdown etc.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Borthwick was a specialist lineout coach who sort of merged into a forwards coach, which he doesn't look qualified for.
No qualms about keeping borthwick on but we either need a full on forwards coach or a specialist breakdown coach (like we did with Smith for a few months)
We've already got a scrum coach so having specialists for each aspect of the game could work, though equally could be too many cooks spoiling the broth

I'd argue the set pieces are all pretty self-contained so beyond forming set piece moves off them, it's quite sensible to have someone who specialises in just that area. Borthwick is a good lineout coach I believe and our scrums are ok. Our big problem is we don't seem to have any moves prepared for mid-play between breakdowns to manipulate defences. It's weird how we have so many players standing out of rucks to keep themselves available and yet the majority of what we do from a ruck is a 1 out pass to a static forward who runs straight into contact. There is no point keeping lots of players on their feet if you aren't going to use them in more dynamic moves.

Having a specialist who can deal with the breakdown and then moving the ball from the breakdown to a variety of set patterns will do wonders for getting England going again. From that we might even reach the lofty heights of players thinking for themselves and acting based on what is in front of them.

 

[Nudger]

Is it this Thursday eddy names touring squad?
And will he name England v babas squad?

 

[will311293]

Is it this Thursday eddy names touring squad?
And will he name England v babas squad?

Yes names squad Thursday for touring party. Not sure about the BaBas squad though...

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Eddie biging up Cips...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Possibly as a FB apparently.

 

[TheSaffycen]

5 Live just said Jones has been constantly talking to Cipriani. Would love to see him at 10 with Farrell or Slade outside.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Loz ----> Faz as a 12.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Loz ----> Faz as a 12.

Just no...

 

[TheSaffycen]

Loz at 12 could work, or at 15?
Seems weird to have Cips at 15, obviously has the pace but couldn't imagine many worse player for a last gasp 1 v1 tackle

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Loz at 12 worked in Argentina.
Unlike Faz he actually has speed to be an carrying threat.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Loz would be my choice of 12 for SA. Him paired with Cipriani could be absolutely lethal.