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England EPS 2017/18 edition.

Tigs Man said:
So my revised baabaas squad.
1. Obano, 2. Singleton, 3. Schonert
4. Spencer, 5. Ewels
6. Ross, 7, O'Connor, 8. Mercer
9. Vellacott, 10. Smith
12. Redpath, 13. Tuilagi
11. Cokasigna, 14. Ibitoye, 15. Woodward

16. Walker, 17. Boyce, 18. Hill
19. Williams, 20. Curry
21. White, 22. Shillcock, 23. Butler/Lawrence

IMO would be good pre RWC U20's experiance for the likes of Redpath, White and Ibitoye and in positions where not too many

Interested to see the U20's squad could be one of the best set of backs we have had.
9. White, Snow, Brand
10. Grayson, Hardwick
11. Loader, Seabrook
12. Butler, Redpath,
13. Lawrence, James,
14. Ibitoye, Olowofela
15. Parton, Crossdale,

Put Smith in that squad and damn.
Click to expand...

Some odd selections there IMO.

As a Quins fan, I'm excited to see how Boyce develops, but he hasn't played a senior game in a while and I can't see any justification for picking for the Barbarians game. Genge, Obano and Harrison are all more deserving right now.

Redpath has trained with England but has done nothing to warrant a starting place.

The sides we pick for Barbarians games usually include a few regulars at the very least.

I'd go for:

1. Genge
2. Dunn
3. Sinckler
4. Attwood
5. Ewels
6. Ross
7. B. Curry
8. Mercer
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Lewington
12. Tuilagi
13. Trinder
14. Cokanasiga
15. Woodward

16. Singleton
17. Obano
18. Hill
19. Spencer*
20. Ludlow
21. Vellacott
22. Smith
23. Shillcock

*Stooke if Spencer is unfit
 
BPM said:
Some odd selections there IMO.

As a Quins fan, I'm excited to see how Boyce develops, but he hasn't played a senior game in a while and I can't see any justification for picking for the Barbarians game. Genge, Obano and Harrison are all more deserving right now.

Redpath has trained with England but has done nothing to warrant a starting place.

The sides we pick for Barbarians games usually include a few regulars at the very least.

I'd go for:

1. Genge
2. Dunn
3. Sinckler
4. Attwood
5. Ewels
6. Ross
7. B. Curry
8. Mercer
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Lewington
12. Tuilagi
13. Trinder
14. Cokanasiga
15. Woodward

16. Singleton
17. Obano
18. Hill
19. Spencer*
20. Ludlow
21. Vellacott
22. Smith
23. Shillcock

*Stooke if Spencer is unfit
Click to expand...

Not as odd as playing Sinckler and Youngs in a pointless non cap game.

Summer baabaas team is usually weaker than AI one and why risk players nailed on like genge in a pointless warm up.
Who is going to learn more from the game Redpath or Tuilagi (who isn't even touring SA.

It's the one England game of the year people don't care, so why not let the youngsters experiance twickenham?
Gits was capped by Aus before playing super rugby.
 
Well to put it in to perspective, the starting XV for the Barbarians game in 2017 included Robshaw, Care, Ford, May and Brown.

I didn't realise Tuilagi definitely wasn't touring? In that case, I'd pick someone like Francis ahead of Redpath.

The side I picked is more in keeping with the general pattern of the sides we pick for these games. Almost a 50/50 mix of capped and uncapped players.

I don't really see the case for Boyce or Redpath. It's not that I don't like either player, I just don't think there's any justification to pick them now.
 
There's a balance to be struck; not many games in which to garner experience, but theres not a huge amount to be experienced and the players could probably benefit from a rest.
There's also a degree of bedding the new guys who are actually going to play on the tour in with the more experienced "leadership".

Always tricky.

The one group who you can rule out is guys who aren't (barring the apocalypse) going to get caps. Frankly, as consistent as Harrison has been for Sale, he's not going to be selected ahead of Genge, Vunipola et al... now or in the future.
Guys like Boyce and Obano definitely have the potential to earn a good number of caps in the future, this is the perfect soft start to their potential international careers.
 
ratsapprentice said:
There's a balance to be struck; not many games in which to garner experience, but theres not a huge amount to be experienced and the players could probably benefit from a rest.
There's also a degree of bedding the new guys who are actually going to play on the tour in with the more experienced "leadership".

Always tricky.

The one group who you can rule out is guys who aren't (barring the apocalypse) going to get caps. Frankly, as consistent as Harrison has been for Sale, he's not going to be selected ahead of Genge, Vunipola et al... now or in the future.
Guys like Boyce and Obano definitely have the potential to earn a good number of caps in the future, this is the perfect soft start to their potential international careers.
Click to expand...

For the most part, I agree but then Harrison was on the bench in the last Barbarians game. Haley and James also played but the former has since thrown his lot in with the Irish and the latter is probably one of those who will never quite be good enough.

I like Harrison , but I'd put him behind Mako, Marler, Genge, Hepburn and Obano as well as a fit Rapava-Ruskin. The availability of players for this fixture is the only reason I mentioned him.
 
Harrison is basically northern Waller
Indestructible (Those two must hold the record for most 80min performances as a forward), good at everything but doesn't excel at anything/nothing about them really sets them apart as a potential international.

Solid but not spectacular



I'd be looking at Obano and Genge for the barbarians game.
Genge will likely be in the 23 in South Africa but hasn't played a ton recently due to his injuries, a run out in what will likely be a pretty fast paced but low intensity game will do his lungs some good (not that he really needs it going off his performances recently).
 
Agreed. I went for Genge and Obano too BTW.

I just mentioned Harrison as being more deserving of a place than Boyce which has taken the conversation on a complete tangent!
 
Deserving on what basis though?

Harrison's not really shown any potential international ability, whereas Boyce has....

To me, that's what defines whether or not they deserve an opportunity.
 
As I've said all along, I think Boyce has got a lot of potential, but I think it's overstating it to suggest he has shown international ability. I believe he has that ability but I wouldn't say that he has actually demonstrated it yet. Even when Marler has been absent, Lambert has played ahead of Boyce when both have been fit.

The are plenty of experienced test props (inc. some Tier 1) who are worse than Harrison IMO.

Boyce hasn't played in a couple of months. Harrison has put in consistently good performances which makes him more deserving by my reckoning.

It's a moot point anyway. I never suggested that we actually pick Harrison, I just think he has a better case for selection than Boyce at the minute. We don't have to agree.
 
Wow ... this obviously means a lot to you.

Comparing him to current first choice players isn't a fair comparison considering that I'd regard him as 6th or 7th choice for England.

That said, I still I think he's better than any of the Scottish looseheads (Berghan, Reid, Marfo, Bhatti etc.) and probably better than the Welsh looseheads with the exception of Rob Evans or Gethin Jenkins (he's still going I think?).
 
Last edited:
I just don't see why it has to be deserved though.

It's a failing in this country IMO, it's pretty obvious IMO which players have that X factor and which ones are solid players on the whole.
Genge made his International debut of the back of 6 prem games one of which he started, Boyce has started that many games for quins this season.

I would agree if it was say an SA tour place spot, but the June barbarians should be a time to experiment a bit give some younger players that exposure, not like we have a saxons tour to play them in.
 
Is there any chance that clubs will release players who likely won't feature for them but may get a look into England's Barbarians team, ie Malins, Earle etc.
 
Tigs Man said:
I just don't see why it has to be deserved though.

It's a failing in this country IMO, it's pretty obvious IMO which players have that X factor and which ones are solid players on the whole.
Genge made his International debut of the back of 6 prem games one of which he started, Boyce has started that many games for quins this season.

I would agree if it was say an SA tour place spot, but the June barbarians should be a time to experiment a bit give some younger players that exposure, not like we have a saxons tour to play them in.
Click to expand...

I agree in part. Without the Saxons, there's limited scope for experimentation. However, I believe Saxons fixtures are back on the agenda for next season.

Re. Genge and Boyce, I think we're talking about two quite different beasts. Genge is a force of nature and it was immediately apparent he had something special. Boyce looks very promising but I don't think he's another Genge.

I still feel like players need to have done something to justify being selected. I'm not suggesting we reward honest triers for their efforts, but psychologically, I question the wisdom of handing players caps based purely on potential/raw ability. There is a risk that some players get handed an opportunity based upon pure potential and as a result don't value the hard work needed to hone their game.
 

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