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"england do not deserve your support"

smb64 said:
Is this guy a moron? I'm not a massive fan of playing foreign players, but this kind of thing is in no way exclusive to the England team. Its wide spread around the world in almost every international team, and he writes an article encouraging people not to support England? Even suggesting playing for England doesn't mean anything. Surely we should all withdraw our support for every team with "mixed nationality" playing for it?
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Just looking at your list as well, countries like South Africa, New Zealand, Trinidad and Tobago, etc. have historical ties to England, obviously. England is the father of the Commonwealth of Nations, being a Kiwi I can even trace some of my family line back to England. It's fairly obvious as well, seeing as I have a very English last name (Clark).

Does Mark Reason prefer that players only ever play for the country they were born in, no matter where their life takes them?
 
The man is clearly a trolling pillock.

I'd go on, but it would give him more attention and dignity than he deserves.
 
smb64 said:
This is an article from one of the Telegraphs world cup emails



Is this guy a moron? I'm not a massive fan of playing foreign players, but this kind of thing is in no way exclusive to the England team. Its wide spread around the world in almost every international team, and he writes an article encouraging people not to support England? Even suggesting playing for England doesn't mean anything. Surely we should all withdraw our support for every team with "mixed nationality" playing for it?

Correct me if I'm wrong but - England team for Saturday

Foden - English
Ashton - English
Tuilangi - Somoan
Tindall - English
Armitage - Trinidad and Tobago
Wilkinson - English
Youngs - English
Haskell - English
Moody - English
Croft - English
Lawes - English
Deacon - English
Cole - English
Thompson- English
Stevens - South African

Hartley - New Zealand
Corbisiero - Italy/USA?
Palmer - English
Easter - English
Wigglesworth - English
Flood - English
Banahan - English

Maybe I've missed the point of the article, but how can Mark Reason consider himself a professional sports journalist when he is so actively biased against England.
Am I the blind one? Are England really an "unlovely side of mixed nationality that does not deserve your support".
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I'm a firm believer that if you qualify for a nation sport wise then you are that nationality.

I think if you ask Hartley, Stevens, Armatige et al I think they will say they're English too.
 
SelimNiai said:
I'm a firm believer that if you qualify for a nation sport wise then you are that nationality.

I think if you ask Hartley, Stevens, Armatige et al I think they will say they're English too.
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Stevens, Armatige and Hartley maybe.

Flutey, Hape, Vainikolo, Paul and Waldrom? i highly doubt it.
 
Not sure what the problem is. England really should be proud of it's immigration policy and (to a certain extent) it's immigrants. They let anyone who is under political/religious/etc.. persecution through the door regardless (to an extent) and give them a good start to life in the UK. I know that this doesn't really count in the case of sports players coming over when they are older, but as far as i see it these are the returns for the english being so supportive of (how can i put this without sounding like a complete jerk) the less advantaged around the world. Often Bok friends here in London bellittle teams like Saracens for being full of SA players, but if 75 per cent of young south africans are trying to leave their country then i think that they have more important things to be thinking about. Fair play to england.
 
I think we've all missed the point of this article. He is very right in the fact about the community. The rest is rubbish but the community thing is VERY true.
 
This is actually a bit funny... but there are plenty of fringe players for england who are also from other countries, a name that keeps popping up in my head is Bradley Barrit. but that article should actually be more relevant to the England Cricket squad:

Foreign players playing for England Cricket:

Andrew Strauss
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Craig Kieswetter
Matthew Hoggard
Matt Prior

as well as Eion Morgan from Ireland...

but to write such nonsense as to not support England is just not cricket!

There's only 3 nations in this world cup who don't have a player from another nation in some form in their Squad namely Romania, Georgia and Argentina...

Every other nation should then be under scrutiny, not just england!!
 
Brad Barritt has an English parent though, doesn't he?
I know he had an English passport (as well as South African) while living/playing in South Africa

This is the case with a lot of the "imports" too (Corbisiero, Stevens, Armitage, for example, all have at least one English parent - then others (e.g Hartley) have a grandparent, as well as moving at a young age)
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Brad Barritt has an English parent though, doesn't he?
I know he had an English passport (as well as South African) while living/playing in South Africa

This is the case with a lot of the "imports" too (Corbisiero, Stevens, Armitage, for example, all have at least one English parent - then others (e.g Hartley) have a grandparent, as well as moving at a young age)
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Yes, and I for one don't have a problem with this at all, I remember when Clyde Rathbone went to Australia, there were major outcries in SA that this policy must end and what not, but in all fairness, I don't think he would've made the Bok team... We had a very good centre combination with De Wet Barry and Marius Joubert and then with JDV and Jaque Fourie... and Rathbone wouldn't have gotten the opportunities he got playing for Oz... so what's the problem??

My Grandfather came from the Netherlands and although I have only met his brother once, I'm still eligible to get a Dutch passport even though both my mom and dad are South African... but it's still my decision on whether I want to execute that choice or not...
 
heineken said:
Foreign players playing for England Cricket:

Andrew Strauss
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Craig Kieswetter
Matthew Hoggard
Matt Prior

as well as Eion Morgan from Ireland...

but to write such nonsense as to not support England is just not cricket!
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Strauss was only born in Jo'burg. He's as english as a toasted crumpet. Hoggard is pure Yorkshire, Kieswetter's mother is English and he has been living here for more than enough to qualify on residency. Again, if you asked each of them they'd call themselves English.

The Morgan situation is the only one I disagree with.
 
SelimNiai said:
Strauss was only born in Jo'burg. He's as english as a toasted crumpet. Hoggard is pure Yorkshire, Kieswetter's mother is English and he has been living here for more than enough to qualify on residency. Again, if you asked each of them they'd call themselves English.

The Morgan situation is the only one I disagree with.
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What about Pietersen or Trott??

lol

like I said, I'm not against the policy... if they have that back-up passport luxury, then by all means use it...
 
I personally don't have a problem with the English Saffas like Barritt, Pietersen etc shuffing off and playing for England. I don't want to take anything away from English South Africans who see themselves as South Africans but a LOT of them see themselves as English living in SA; that's why we call them 'soutpiele'; one foot in SA, one foot in England and the rest..

As for Fourie and Botha well it's a sad state of affairs that these people decided to turn their backs on their country but that's the individual's choice and if the price is right and if they see themselves as Englishman (in the 'broad' sense) /or don't want to associate with SA and England are willing to pick them up then so be it.

To a certain extent I can understand (in a theoretical way) what the author is saying regarding tribalism and people getting excited about the exploits of their countrymen and are these 'imports' truely countrymen? On the other hand I know that I see Tendai Mtawarira as an adopted son and I can get just as excited when he rampages up the outside as I do when any other born South African does something well be they Boer, Colored, Xhosa, Zulu, Indian, Venda, Suthu, English or whatever so if the fans can invest in them who is the author to say they 'don't deserve' our/your support!
 
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With Fourie and Botha I can understand their "allegiance" to England, from a purely rugby perspective

Neither broke into pro-rugby playing in SA, but when they moved to the UK, into the lower leagues, they thrived - progressed from amateur to semi-pro to pro rugby - So I can understand their rugby feeling English, however I can also understand the people who don't agree with their inclusion, because really they're as English as biltong :p
 
heineken said:
What about Pietersen or Trott??

lol

like I said, I'm not against the policy... if they have that back-up passport luxury, then by all means use it...
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Pietersen has an English mother. Don't recall the exacts of Trott's ancestry, but he had a British passport before ever coming here to the best of my knowledge and is clearly of English descent.

Players like these I will never have a problem with (with the except of Waldrom, who didn't even know he had an English grandmother when he came here ffs). People with no tie like Morgan or Hape I do have issues with... even there, there are slight nuances. Morgan had no chance at representing his home country at test cricket on account of them not being a test nation, briefly attended school in England and has been playing in England since he was 20. Flutey and Hape both could have played test match rugby for New Zealand. Hape did play test match rugby league for New Zealand. Flutey only came over here aged 25. I believe Morgan when he said he talked about playing for England as a teenager. I wouldn't believe Flutey or Hape if they said the same thing.

And so on. I believe I have now rambled entirely off from the point you were making...

TRF_Olyy said:
With Fourie and Botha I can understand their "allegiance" to England, from a purely rugby perspective

Neither broke into pro-rugby playing in SA, but when they moved to the UK, into the lower leagues, they thrived - progressed from amateur to semi-pro to pro rugby - So I can understand their rugby feeling English, however I can also understand the people who don't agree with their inclusion, because really they're as English as biltong :p
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These are the trickiest to me. Both have been here long enough to qualify for British passports through residency. Both have received substantial amounts of their rugby education in England. I can believe they feel English in part and want to give something back. Yet I strongly doubt they're English in the same way that you and I are (big assumption there). Generally, I'd say passport holders should be allowed to play for their country (an inconsistent standard I know), but should only be picked if there is genuine feeling on part of the player... which most fans have no way of knowing.

They're both more worthy than Waldrom, that's for sure...
 
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Reading any article by Mark Reason, whether it be his opinions on cheating, team make ups, or professionalism, just make me want to rush out and buy war bonds :) ... his views are so dated ... he cherry picks the facts to suit his articles, and the general vibe of them is nearly always negative.

... in short, he tries to be controversial, much like say Stephen Jones, or even like his father was, John Reason ... but I guess these type of articles sell papers, which in turn, allow him to pay his bills ... so, good luck to him.

As for the issue of who is English (insert which ever country you like here) or not, my feeling is that if you have lived in the country long enough that your heart stirs when that country's national anthem is sung, or that it actually means something other than earning extra money, or that they just want to play test rugby ... ie, they actually feel some national pride and genuinely love the country they are playing for, then it's okay to play for them.

I guess from the residency point of view, maybe citizenship would be a better eligibility tool ... it's a pretty good indicator of a persons intent, because of the number of hoops you have to jump through to get it ... that's my opinion anyway
 
Some people say that Hape isn't English... but he's been playing in the country for 8 years (which surely gives him the right to feel English?), including playing all of his rugby union years here, and only played in NZ for 3 years as an adult.
 
He still represented another country at a professional sport at international level - that should lock you, in my opinion, regardless of what sport it is
 
Had a look at some of Mark Reason's other writing and yep, the guy is a total tool. Some of his comments would cause a war with the die hard AB fans on here. So i am not even going to bother to post them. This guy seems content to try and cause as much grief as possibe.
 
Saintjay said:
Had a look at some of Mark Reason's other writing and yep, the guy is a total tool. Some of his comments would cause a war with the die hard AB fans on here. So i am not even going to bother to post them. This guy seems content to try and cause as much grief as possibe.
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Yep, we get most of his articles on the Stuff website in New Zealand ... you can post a response to most of his opinions on that site, but there's not a lot of point really ... because he's not likely to read them, let alone respond or justify his position on things
 

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