"england do not deserve your support"

smb64 · Sep 29, 2011

This is an article from one of the Telegraphs world cup emails

Is this guy a moron? I'm not a massive fan of playing foreign players, but this kind of thing is in no way exclusive to the England team. Its wide spread around the world in almost every international team, and he writes an article encouraging people not to support England? Even suggesting playing for England doesn't mean anything. Surely we should all withdraw our support for every team with "mixed nationality" playing for it?

Correct me if I'm wrong but - England team for Saturday

Foden - English
Ashton - English
Tuilangi - Somoan
Tindall - English
Armitage - Trinidad and Tobago
Wilkinson - English
Youngs - English
Haskell - English
Moody - English
Croft - English
Lawes - English
Deacon - English
Cole - English
Thompson- English
Stevens - South African

Hartley - New Zealand
Corbisiero - Italy/USA?
Palmer - English
Easter - English
Wigglesworth - English
Flood - English
Banahan - English

Maybe I've missed the point of the article, but how can Mark Reason consider himself a professional sports journalist when he is so actively biased against England.
Am I the blind one? Are England really an "unlovely side of mixed nationality that does not deserve your support".

J

JW.

Bench Player

Sep 29, 2011

#2

Is that guy a professional? Thought he was just some asshole writing a hate mail. England will always have my support.

What a prick.

N

NJR1

Academy Player

Sep 29, 2011

#3

What a tosser, how does he feel about Toeava - Samoan, Muliaina - Somoan, Kaino - Samoan, I suppose in his eye's it doesn't count, as they are All Blacks.

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance

Staff member

TRF Legend Supporter

Sep 29, 2011

#4

JW. said:
Is that guy a professional? Thought he was just some asshole writing a hate mail. England will always have my support.

What a prick.

Seaton

First XV

Sep 29, 2011

#5

I mind there was some English journo in New Zealand who did a piece that caused a little bit of a fuss, think it was 'NZ are cheats'?, is this the same guy?

TRF C A Iversen

Rugby Gaming Nut

TRF Legend

Sep 29, 2011

#6

NJR1 said:
What a tosser, how does he feel about Toeava - Samoan, Muliaina - Somoan, Kaino - Samoan, I suppose in his eye's it doesn't count, as they are All Blacks.

Only posting this because defending ENGLAND seems to mean attacking New Zealand.

Kaino came to New Zealand at four years old. Relevant? No. ALL his rugby was here.

Mils Muliaina came to New Zealand at 2 years old Relevant? No. ALL his rugby was here.

Toeava came to New Zealand at a very young age too. Relevant? No. ALL his rugby was here.

Waldrom, Hape, Flutey, Tuilagi. Relevant? Yes. They were very talented and mostly developed talent elsewhere before England took them under their wing with a nice cheque-book.

It was alright to attack NZ over Tews comments. I guess attacking Reason and anyone who mentions England's stellar development system is fair game too?

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance

Staff member

TRF Legend Supporter

Sep 29, 2011

#7

TRF C A Iversen said:
Waldrom, Hape, Flutey, Tuilagi. Relevant? Yes. They were very talented and mostly developed talent elsewhere before England took them under their wing with a nice cheque-book.

While I agree with all of your post, I don't think you can count Tuilagi with those others - he came across at like age 12, to live with his brothers who paid for him to go to a private school here - No RFU courting involved at all
Freddie Tuilagi has said before that he wanted Manu to play for Samoa, but it was Manu's choice to play for England as he felt more English due to playing most (all?) of his Rugby here

However, as I said, I agree with the rest of the post - no need to bring NZ up at all, especially when it's an English reporter writing the article

Kiwiwomble

International

TRF Legend

Sep 29, 2011

#8

NJR1 said:
What a tosser, how does he feel about Toeava - Samoan, Muliaina - Somoan, Kaino - Samoan, I suppose in his eye's it doesn't count, as they are All Blacks.

Reason is English Journalist, just living in nz, isn't he? if so im not sure how this has swung so quickly to a kiwi bashing

smb64

Academy Player

Sep 29, 2011

#9

Believe he is English Journalist yes

"Mark Reason has been a sports journalist for over 25 years. He currently works for Fairfax Media and will also be part of the Telegraph's World Cup team and a regular panellist on Radio New Zealand during the World Cup. He has covered every Rugby World Cup since 1991, the 2000 and 2008 Olympics, over 40 golf major championships, the FA Cup final, the Epsom Derby and a lot of other stuff he can't remember. Mark emigrated to New Zealand in 2010 having spent over 20 years covering sport for the Telegraph and Sunday Times in Britain." - http://www.therugbysite.com/contributors/1

I didn't write this post to bash NZ or anything but in Reasons words players like Kaino, Mils Muliaina, Toeava are "mixed nationality" as they were not born in NZ. The fact they learnt their rugby in NZ from young ages discounts that though. He claims England of being "opportunist to a shameful degree" for playing foreign players but its not only England who have done this. I'm sure the rules are something like if you live in a country for 3 years you can play rugby for them? England have taken advantage of this a little, so have NZ to an extent playing players not of NZ origin. So whats the problem? Why are England the bad guys?

Last edited: Sep 29, 2011

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance

Staff member

TRF Legend Supporter

Sep 29, 2011

#10

Jabby said:
if so im not sure how this has swung so quickly to a kiwi bashing

No one can mention the word "import" without people having a heart attack and spouting the same old tripe

TRF C A Iversen

Rugby Gaming Nut

TRF Legend

Sep 29, 2011

#11

TRF_Olyy said:
While I agree with all of your post, I don't think you can count Tuilagi with those others - he came across at like age 12, to live with his brothers who paid for him to go to a private school here - No RFU courting involved at all
Freddie Tuilagi has said before that he wanted Manu to play for Samoa, but it was Manu's choice to play for England as he felt more English due to playing most (all?) of his Rugby here

However, as I said, I agree with the rest of the post - no need to bring NZ up at all, especially when it's an English reporter writing the article

Well Olyy, I have to say I think your spot on again. I actually used to like England a lot as a team from 1999- to about 2004-2005. As I've said in another thread I thought they were a team on the up. They started to become a far more attacking team, were positive. Then they had a bit of a form slump and things changed a little, but that's not why I stopped liking England.

It was the supporters. The relentless All Black and New Zealand rugby comments whenever there's a chance just got too much. Don't get me wrong, I have a thick enough skin for it, but it just makes us dislike the english team a lot more than many of us ever would. If every supporter could be a bit more like you I think I for one would be into following them again like I do Ireland and Wales now.

Kiwiwomble

International

TRF Legend

Sep 29, 2011

#12

TRF_Olyy said:
No one can mention the word "import" without people having a heart attack and spouting the same old tripe

probably true, i should really just learn to stick to the threads actually about rugby.....probably wont happen though

TRF C A Iversen

Rugby Gaming Nut

TRF Legend

Sep 29, 2011

#13

For my most on-topic post here, lol.

Firstly I accept a large amount of Tuilagi's development was in England.

Basically I think Reason is well over-doing an issue that's not a major one yet. It might well be in the future if England allow the instances of these sorts of things to increase. Two or three players of the whole grand-parentage or residency thing, is no reason (pardon the pun) to not support your side.

He's probably not being the voice of Reason right now. (Weak) Pun intended.

j'nuh

First XV

Sep 30, 2011

#14

TRF C A Iversen said:
Basically I think Reason is well over-doing an issue that's not a major one yet. It might well be in the future if England allow the instances of these sorts of things to increase. Two or three players of the whole grand-parentage or residency thing, is no reason (pardon the pun) to not support your side.

But I wouldn't even see the issue if our whole team, replacements and saxons were "imports" (except perhaps being bothered about what's happened to our development). I mean really, why do people still think that there's no way first-generation immigrants have a chance of feeling English? Sure, a lot of first-generation immigrants may still feel culturally a part of their home country, but I don't see why that stops them simultaneously being a part of their home country and English. If I spent a few years in another country, I'd imagine I'd start to identify as part of the country, even if I still had cravings for yorkshire puddings.

W

William18

First XV

Sep 30, 2011

#15

LordHope said:
I mind there was some English journo in New Zealand who did a piece that caused a little bit of a fuss, think it was 'NZ are cheats'?, is this the same guy?

Yeah, the guy is an idiot. He wrote this article http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/5535927/A-word-on-the-All-Blacks-play-Cheats and it seems to me like he just wants to create a fuss.

Although the OP points out that there may not be that many foreigners in the English team I would still be concerned if I was England. We don't want to get into a stage where players are mercenaries without any loyalty. This is something that a lot of countries are guilty of though. A lot of minnow do this but people let therm off because of their status in world rugby.

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance

Staff member

TRF Legend Supporter

Sep 30, 2011

#16

I'm bored, so here's my foreign England XV (foreign = born abroad, regardless of nationality) of players who have been in the England squad and are still playing:

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Stevens
4. Shaw
5. Ward-Smith
6. Fourie
7. Armitage
8. Waldrom
9. Simpson
10. Flutey
11. Armitage
12. Erinle
13. Tuilagi
14. Vainikolo
15. Abendanon

Not a completely terrible side

G

gingergenius

First XV

Sep 30, 2011

#17

It really gets on my tits when people bring birth into it. Fair enough complain about Hape and Waldrom, but to complain about people like Armitage and Tuilagi is ridiculous.

Stats sum it up - 22% of schoolchildren in England are from ethnic minority backgrounds, and between 15 and 20% of the population are from ethnic minority backgrounds. If you take into consideration the HUGE English diaspora around the world, as well as just under 10 million people from ethnic minorities, then sports teams having foreign born players is just inevitable, be they English and born in Kenya (Simon Shaw) or American and grew up in England (Corbisiero).

The fact that Armitage and Tuilagi get far more attention than Stevens and Hartley is purely based on skin colour.

We can debate until the cows come home about the 'mercenaries' who find grannies or residency permits to claim their Englishness. But for me there is no debate about England's players who just happen to have been born elsewhere. The fact that this material is used is purely a method used by journalists/ trolls to augment their point and whip up hype.

The same applies to New Zealand's Samoan-born players.

S

Siva Tau

Academy Player

Sep 30, 2011

#18

If Tuilagi is aksed in the street I bet he says Im Samoan

TNT88

First XV

Sep 30, 2011

#19

What a prick (the journalist). Who is he to tell people what countries they should and shouldn't represent. These articles are always bordering racism IMO. I bet that "community feel" he gets is when the whole team is white.

Last edited: Sep 30, 2011