England 6 Nation squad 2024

[LIONSxv]

I get where you're coming from, but over the course of his career Itoje has been very comfortably our best option at 4 - like who's he been keeping out? Lawes before he went permanently to 6? I guess Chessum shifting to play 5*, but then who would step in to partner Chessum if we'd dropped Itoje, considering he and Martin are rarely fit at the same time - Ewels?

For me the bigger issue is our inability to produce tighthead locks than having one of the best in world at 4


*I know he often wears 5 for Tigers, but he packs down at 4

I don't get this hate that Itoje gets. In modern rugby virtually all teams will have one athletic type lock and one that does the grunt work. It's not MI fault that we never replaced Kruis.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I don't get this hate that Itoje gets. In modern rugby virtually all teams will have one athletic type lock and one that does the grunt work. It's not MI fault that we never replaced Kruis.

Yep. Mostert, Beirne and Woki all lighter than Itoje. Scott Barrett only a couple of kg heavier.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't get this hate that Itoje gets. In modern rugby virtually all teams will have one athletic type lock and one that does the grunt work. It's not MI fault that we never replaced Kruis.

No, it's not.

But it's also true that for an extended period Itoje underperformed what he's clearly capable of. Maybe there was a bit of change of role in there but I'm not really buying that - you can still be evidently influential in a non showy way, Kruis, Hill etc. At times he was picked on reputation just as much as Binny or Youngs were. Maybe that was down to whatever his health issue was, but for quite a while we only saw flashes of what he was really capable of.

He's got at least some of his mojo back while paired with Chessum who's definitely another in the athletic mould. Whether he and Martin would be a better combination remains to be seen. Whether Martin and Chessum could become better still is another question altogether.

But Itoje's a smallish lock and I do agree that, at times, he has helped to unbalance the pack. Whoever gave the cramming best players into the England football team analogy got it spot on. It's about getting the best blend.

 

[LIONSxv]

No, it's not.

But it's also true that for an extended period Itoje underperformed what he's clearly capable of. Maybe there was a bit of change of role in there but I'm not really buying that - you can still be evidently influential in a non showy way, Kruis, Hill etc. At times he was picked on reputation just as much as Binny or Youngs were. Maybe that was down to whatever his health issue was, but for quite a while we only saw flashes of what he was really capable of.

He's got at least some of his mojo back while paired with Chessum who's definitely another in the athletic mould. Whether he and Martin would be a better combination remains to be seen. Whether Martin and Chessum could become better still is another question altogether.

But Itoje's a smallish lock and I do agree that, at times, he has helped to unbalance the pack. Whoever gave the cramming best players into the England football team analogy got it spot on. It's about getting the best blend.

Itoje underperforming was still significantly better than Binny, Daly or Young's though. All top players will have periods were their form dips, the ones that don't are all time greats
Apart the last 18 months where Chessum ( has emerged ( although at present I still believe MI is better) who are were we suggesting would be better in that role ? The only one that comes to mind is Nick Isekwe who had well publicised health issues

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Itoje underperforming was pretty consistently still oud best lock for that period though

 

[Which Tyler]

For me the bigger issue is our inability to produce tighthead locks than having one of the best in world at 4

I know we don't have many great options right now - but do we not produce them? Dooley, Ackford, Bayfield, Johnson, Grewcock, Shaw, Attwood, Kruis, Launchbury, Moon, Martin...

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

An exciting provisional 27-man England A squad has been announced.
England A Men
The strong squad includes a blend of experience and youth, with five players already capped at senior level, and some younger stars just at the start of their England careers.

England A v Portgual, Sunday 25 February
To be played at Leicester Tigers Stadium
Tickets still available from £17.50 for adults
Those capped include: Jamie Blamire, Nick Isiewke, Tom Pearson, Harry Randall and Ollie Hassell-Collins. 21 of the 27 players have been brought through the England Rugby pathway, and achieved caps at either U18 or U20 level within the men's system.

The squad was selected by England Senior Men's Head Coach Steve Borthwick in consultation with England A head coach George Skivington, defence coach Dom Waldouck, attack coach Sam Vesty and RFU Director of Rugby Performance Conor O'Shea.

ENGLAND A MEN SQUAD
Forwards

Fin Baxter (Harlequins)

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps)

Tarek Haffar (Northampton Saints)

Sam Riley (Harlequins)

Seb Blake (Gloucester)

Josh Iosefa Scott (Exeter Chiefs)

James Harper (Sale Sharks)

Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)

Arthur Clark (Gloucester)

Ben Bamber (Sale Sharks)

Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)

Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)

Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)

Alfie Barbeary (Bath)

Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clement (Gloucester)

Backs

Caolan Englefield (Gloucester)

Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)

Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester)

Jamie Shillcock (Leicester Tigers)

Oliver Sleightholme (Northampton Saints)

Oliver Hartley (Saracens)

Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (Sale Sharks)

Cadan Murley (Harlequins)

Ollie Hassell-Collins (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)

Josh Hodge (Exeter Chiefs)

Sam Harris (Bath)

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Some rogue pics in there imo. Also to be joined by players from the main squad, so imagine Beard etc may get a run out

 

[Which Tyler]

Impressed, and delighted, to see the likes of Hartley, Ma'asi-White and Harris in there

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ma'asi-White has been really poor since returning from injury, very surprised at his call up

Not overly keen on that side tbh, too many completely left field picks who aren't in with a realistic chance of threatening for international honours - bit of a Gloucester flavour running through it, which is to be expected considering the coaches, but a shame considering their form the last two seasons

Very disappointed at no Carpenter

Englefield made his pro debut 5 years ago, has 10 starts and 5 of those are in the Prem Cup

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dooley, Ackford, Bayfield, Johnson, Grewcock, Shaw

Not sure how many of these were in fit shape to partner Itoje over the last few years,
Attwood should've gotten way more caps than he has, fell victim to EJ's view that flankers and locks should be interchangeable

 

[Which Tyler]

Not sure how many of these were in fit shape to partner Itoje over the last few years,
Attwood should've gotten way more caps than he has, fell victim to EJ's view that flankers and locks should be interchangeable

Sorry, "inability to produce" sounded like you felt it was a perennial problem, rather than a "Kruis went to Japan, Launchbury's club went bust, and Attwood never recovered from..."

I'd say Attwood was more ruined by Lancaster telling him to lose weight and work on mobility ahead of RWC15, and then ditching him for losing a little power when he did so.

As for the A-squad, I'm assuming/hoping that's the additions to the first's squad, rather than the match-squad to be culled down to 23.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sorry, "inability to produce" sounded like you felt it was a perennial problem

Nah, just talking about partners for Itoje

 

[Geordie]

No Ehren Painter in that list either....interesting...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I was not saying we had options to take the shirt of Itoje, but if we were blessed with SA level locks and Itoje focussed at 6, it might have produced a more balanced pack.

In reality we have struggled more recently to produce quality TH locks, but maybe that's because the England coaches haven't valued them and as a bi-product we've got lots of mobile locks and the. Massive foreign locks in the prem.

 

[Geordie]

Nah, just talking about partners for Itoje

Maybe Rus Tuima will impress v Portgual and he could be a competitor v Martin for that tight head lock role.

 

[Geordie]

I was not saying we had options to take the shirt of Itoje, but if we were blessed with SA level locks and Itoje focussed at 6, it might have produced a more balanced pack.

In reality we have struggled more recently to produce quality TH locks, but maybe that's because the England coaches haven't valued them and as a bi-product we've got lots of mobile locks and the. Massive foreign locks in the prem.

Does this go back to what Baxter said about scrummaging in the Prem in general earlier in the season?

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Maybe Rus Tuima will impress v Portgual and he could be a competitor v Martin for that tight head lock role.

He looks like he could be a very good option. Impressed in the age grades, judging by the number of caps (although size is more of an advantage there than it will be at international) and still only 23.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Itoje underperforming was still significantly better than Binny, Daly or Young's though.

Was it? A smallish lock performing well down, still giving away pens, part of a weak scrum, not attacking opposition line out ball and still getting selected? And that was over an extended period.

The difference was that Binny / Youngs were in terminal decline. Itoje wasn't but I'd say was still performing at a similar degree below personal benchmark. Was that better than 'lesser' players coming in and performing, we don't know as he continued to get picked.

Labels get stuck to players, usually unfairly or on the basis of just a few incidents. Mostly these are negative, but sometimes overly positive and I think Itoje has benefited from that to an extent. That said he's worth his place at the moment although he and Chessum aren't balanced as a pair.

Not sure what to make of that A squad.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Nah, just talking about partners for Itoje

J Hill had the size but was too much of a throwback.

Isiekwe's been the obvious one. Complements Itoje well and there's the club understanding with him and George. He's been discussed ad nauseam on here, but never been given a real run of games to make his case.