England 6 Nation squad 2024

[Ragey Erasmus]

Results show we are getting worse as we are winning by less compared to last year which shouldn't be the case for multiple reasons.

But just to say we are winning doesn't disprove the fact we are actually performing worse than last years 6 nations.

Not sure why people are so naive to say that winning is all that matters when it's a poor wales and a poor Italy team.

Winning is all that matters when playing actual tier 1 nations, but they were not.

England have won a similar number of their recent games as Ireland. Anyone would have to be mad to say therefore England and Ireland are on a similar level. It's just like when we got to the end of our winning streak with Jones and it was fine as we were still winning. The thing about continuing to scrape ugly wins is eventually they stop being ugly wins and start being ugly losses. Change should happen before we get there, not after.

 

[Geordie]

And that was a 1 point loss to the RWC winners. Eddie's aim of being the greatest team to ever pick up an egg shaped ball ever is getting closer to reality.

Honestly, I think a team that wasn't involved in Saturday would have beaten the team that was.

Obano
LCD
Sinckler
Martin
Isiekwe / Ribbans
J Willis
T Curry
T Willis / Mercer / Barbeary
Warr
Coka
M Smith
Lawrence
Marchant
Radwan
Watson

Most of those aren't even in the squad. Then you've Manu and Faz etc on the bench.

I wouldn't put any money against it!

You are correct however quite a few of them would most probably have been IN the team this weekend if fit and available?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You are correct however quite a few of them would most probably have been IN the team this weekend if fit and available?

Absolutely.

We love beating ourselves up in the moment. But I guess the point I'm making is not to read too much into anything right now as there's too much of a first choice / future 23 missing.

Which isn't to excuse what we've already seen.

 

[Reiser99]

I was thinking about how supposedly getting used to the new defensive system will require some short term pain for long term gain and then also about how Gats is blooding his young players more than Borthwick.

I'm worried that 2 years into this cycle, Borthwick's selections are going to come back to bite him when in 2 years he has a group of players not performing or too old that he has to bin and it disrupts any progress in the defensive system.

 

[Geordie]

I was thinking about how supposedly getting used to the new defensive system will require some short term pain for long term gain and then also about how Gats is blooding his young players more than Borthwick.

I'm worried that 2 years into this cycle, Borthwick's selections are going to come back to bite him when in 2 years he has a group of players not performing or too old that he has to bin and it disrupts any progress in the defensive system.

I genuinely would love to have seen the side SB put out for Italy and Wales with ALL players fit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't think it'd be that different tbh, it's not like we're missing a million players

12 and 7 would probably be different but the rest would be bench changes, so not really altering our gameplan which is our issue

Like I think SB still picks Ford over Marcus as Farrell's replacement for the gameplan he's got

 

[Reiser99]

I genuinely would love to have seen the side SB put out for Italy and Wales with ALL players fit.

I honestly think it would have been close to the WC side. Farrell would have started. Stuart for Sinckler. Martin and Chessum might have swapped round or stayed the same. I feel like Curry, Earl and Lawes would also be picked with someone replacing Billy on the bench. Maybe Slade for Marchant and possibly Freeman for May.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

And that was a 1 point loss to the RWC winners. Eddie's aim of being the greatest team to ever pick up an egg shaped ball ever is getting closer to reality.

Honestly, I think a team that wasn't involved in Saturday would have beaten the team that was.

Obano
LCD
Sinckler
Martin
Isiekwe / Ribbans
J Willis
T Curry
T Willis / Mercer / Barbeary
Warr
Coka
M Smith
Lawrence
Marchant
Radwan
Watson

Most of those aren't even in the squad. Then you've Manu and Faz etc on the bench.

I wouldn't put any money against it!

This is what annoys me about the England rugby team. They have so many good players to choose from and yet they cant find tactics to suit the players they have got or a combination of players that can work in harmony.

 

[BPM]

Don't think it'd be that different tbh, it's not like we're missing a million players

12 and 7 would probably be different but the rest would be bench changes, so not really altering our gameplan which is our issue

Like I think SB still picks Ford over Marcus as Farrell's replacement for the gameplan he's got

Not sure about that. We'll never know for sure, but it definitely sounded as though we were set up to start with Marcus Smith and went with Ford because we SB didn't have the balls to start Fin Smith.

 

[Geordie]

Not sure about that. We'll never know for sure, but it definitely sounded as though we were set up to start with Marcus Smith and went with Ford because we SB didn't have the balls to start Fin Smith.

Yeah I have a feeling Marcus was going to start at 10 aswell...but Sbs error was picking Ford when he should have bit the bullet and picked Fin ...

 

[Geordie]

Don't think it'd be that different tbh, it's not like we're missing a million players

12 and 7 would probably be different but the rest would be bench changes, so not really altering our gameplan which is our issue

Like I think SB still picks Ford over Marcus as Farrell's replacement for the gameplan he's got

Well "potentially " this 6n so far, for a variety of reasons we've missed:
Manu
Marchant,
Willis
Farrell
Marcus Smith
Arundell
Tom Curry
Barbeary
George Martin
Watson
Ollie Lawrence

And I think SB would have picked quite a few of those. Which might have swayed his decision over picking players in the squad like Roots etc.

And also with those just maybe the attack might have functioned a little better than it has...

 

[Reiser99]

Well "potentially " this 6n so far, for a variety of reasons we've missed:
Manu
Marchant,
Willis
Farrell
Marcus Smith
Arundell
Tom Curry
Barbeary
George Martin
Watson
Ollie Lawrence

And I think SB would have picked quite a few of those. Which might have swayed his decision over picking players in the squad like Roots etc.

And also with those just maybe the attack might have functioned a little better than it has...

I know I'm in the critical camp, but how many of those we in the team before and the attack didn't function?

I'm all for giving players a chance and possibly I can get on board with giving Borthwick a chance if we actually see some improvement, but we have to do something different. The attack has been stagnant since Jones. I'm not sure if that's because Jones coached all creativity out of them or if they are the wrong players, but I'm not sure why we keep bringing up players who haven't performed or have been part of a failing setup. I know it's not all players on that list, but at the moment the squad doesn't feel any different to how it did before.

One of my biggest issues still under Borthwick is that England don't look like a team. Now I can accept tactics might take time to develop and get embedded, but surely by now you would expect some better cohesion under Borthwick with players at least looking like they know what will happen next.

 

[Geordie]

I might be more supportive than others on here..but im not a SB fan per say and it doesn't mean I'm not critical at times.

It's far from perfect or entertaining. But I don't expect it to be yet.

I still think SB went to the WC with a strict plan of tactics and attack. Do i agree with that....not 100% ..do i understand it...i think so. There were some very positive aspects of the teams performances and some awful ones. But that's done now.

Cohesion is a critical aspect but it's difficult with many of the world Cup team / squad not available immediately for this 6n. He may well have continued with a similar group of players if all available... which would continue the building of Cohesion etc...but I guess we won't know.

I think there's a clear change in tactics now..both attack and defence. We have kicked way less but we've been very poor with ball in hand.
With that in mind, I do think with Lawrence, Marcus, Manu available things might have worked better but again we won't know.
Sbs hasn't always got his selections right...
Daly for example has had a jekyll and Hyde tournament. He's In for experience and playmaking but not effected anything as of yet. Hes Had some good points and had some awful. But with this new defence your wingers need a strong defence, and that's not Dalys game...and with the attack also failing, hes pretty much on a hiding to nothing. So SB needs to get this area right. Maybe Roebuck would have been a better choice.

I still think itll turn around when the players come back but it will take time and it won't be pretty or entertaining for a while.

I think we'll beat Scotland but then get thrashed by Ireland and beaten by France. How long does the RFU give him when we have NZ in the summer aswell...
But if he did go...who would come in?

 

[Saintjay]

I might be more supportive than others on here..but im not a SB fan per say and it doesn't mean I'm not critical at times.

It's far from perfect or entertaining. But I don't expect it to be yet.

I still think SB went to the WC with a strict plan of tactics and attack. Do i agree with that....not 100% ..do i understand it...i think so. There were some very positive aspects of the teams performances and some awful ones. But that's done now.

Cohesion is a critical aspect but it's difficult with many of the world Cup team / squad not available immediately for this 6n. He may well have continued with a similar group of players if all available... which would continue the building of Cohesion etc...but I guess we won't know.

I think there's a clear change in tactics now..both attack and defence. We have kicked way less but we've been very poor with ball in hand.
With that in mind, I do think with Lawrence, Marcus, Manu available things might have worked better but again we won't know.
Sbs hasn't always got his selections right...
Daly for example has had a jekyll and Hyde tournament. He's In for experience and playmaking but not effected anything as of yet. Hes Had some good points and had some awful. But with this new defence your wingers need a strong defence, and that's not Dalys game...and with the attack also failing, hes pretty much on a hiding to nothing. So SB needs to get this area right. Maybe Roebuck would have been a better choice.

I still think itll turn around when the players come back but it will take time and it won't be pretty or entertaining for a while.

I think we'll beat Scotland but then get thrashed by Ireland and beaten by France. How long does the RFU give him when we have NZ in the summer aswell...
But if he did go...who would come in?

I can't put my finger on what's the issue with England and has been for years.
Wales players look better when they play for Wales. There best players play better than Englands. The irish pick and slot players into a system they all know and it works. What is stopping England doing what Ireland do? From what i see with the players we have, it's nothing really.

What is it that makes the majority of England players consistently look worse when they play for England? When you look at the teams of the week are Irelands players across the board better than Englands. How many England players would make up a combined team with Ireland. Three or four if you're lucky. Club form it's 50/50.

Is it a coaching, mental issue or simply the players aren't that good. It's tough for England fans at the moment when success is maybe winning 3/5 six nations games. Which is probably the same for next year then we are two years out from the RWC.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

New systems / players always take time to bed in. As do new coaches. Always better done gradually than cliff edge.

One big question is whether any players underperforming under Jones have looked revitalised under Borthwick. Itoje perhaps one, although that may be down to sorting out whatever his health issues were.

Felix Jones looks like he may be an excellent addition, but the rest of the coaching set up continues to underwhelm. Although Jones is very young he's been coaching for a while including being involved with 2 successful RWC campaigns so knows what it takes at the elite level. Wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't succeed SB in time.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I can't put my finger on what's the issue with England and has been for years.
Wales players look better when they play for Wales. There best players play better than Englands. The irish pick and slot players into a system they all know and it works. What is stopping England doing what Ireland do? From what i see with the players we have, it's nothing really.

What is it that makes the majority of England players consistently look worse when they play for England? When you look at the teams of the week are Irelands players across the board better than Englands. How many England players would make up a combined team with Ireland. Three or four if you're lucky. Club form it's 50/50.

Is it a coaching, mental issue or simply the players aren't that good. It's tough for England fans at the moment when success is maybe winning 3/5 six nations games. Which is probably the same for next year then we are two years out from the RWC.

A pretty consistent issue with England is trying to get players to play a certain way that we've hypothesised as the best, rather than building a gameplan/playstyle around the players we have
We had great success with prime Binny at 8 and prime Manu in the centres and have been chasing that high ever since

Look how good Itoje looks now, compared to last season when a journo leaked that he'd been told by SB not to play his natural game and just hit rucks instead,
Tom Curry worked massively on his carrying and turned into a real threat ball in hand - during the world cup he was barely given the ball, just told to tackle and hit rucks

I don't doubt that Borthwick's coaching style could work very well, but only if he's got the players to match his spreadsheets rather than the other way round.
I bet he'd do well coaching someone like South Africa, but England aren't South Africa and our best/in form players aren't that kind of style of player

 

[Reiser99]

A pretty consistent issue with England is trying to get players to play a certain way that we've hypothesised as the best, rather than building a gameplan/playstyle around the players we have
We had great success with prime Binny at 8 and prime Manu in the centres and have been chasing that high ever since

Look how good Itoje looks now, compared to last season when a journo leaked that he'd been told by SB not to play his natural game and just hit rucks instead,
Tom Curry worked massively on his carrying and turned into a real threat ball in hand - during the world cup he was barely given the ball, just told to tackle and hit rucks

I don't doubt that Borthwick's coaching style could work very well, but only if he's got the players to match his spreadsheets rather than the other way round.
I bet he'd do well coaching someone like South Africa, but England aren't South Africa and our best/in form players aren't that kind of style of player

That was a feature of Jones's reign too. Who was it again who got pick for club form, then got told to increase his weight and form fell off a cliff?

For too long the tactics don't match the players or the balance of players isn't right. Under Jones it looked like players had been stripped of all decision making skills. My worry is that trend will just continue under Borthwick. Especially if he is a play by numbers guy.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

then got told to increase his weight and form fell off a cliff?

T.Curry was told to gain weight in the last couple of seasons under EJ and D.Cole was told to lose weight when with England,
Both went back to their natural weights after not being under EJ's reign anymore (Curry after EJ left, Cole after he was dropped) and both looked significantly better after doing so

 

[LIONSxv]

I think we can condense the issues of the last 4/5 years into two main issues

Selection based on stats and how players have performed a few years back. As opposed to talent and current performance Their is also an obsession regarding shoehorning players in based on having a certain amount of overall caps in the team.

A rigid game plan based on modelling how other teams have won and played. I.e box kicking with lots of set piece and mauls

It feels to me like that all involved in 2019 final were so impressed/scarred by SA that we are trying to (poorly) replicate their selection and tactics.

It's all so frustrating as we can all see that their talent is their. The talent is either left out or not allowed to play tactically.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think we can condense the issues of the last 4/5 years into two main issues

Selection based on stats and how players have performed a few years back. As opposed to talent and current performance Their is also an obsession regarding shoehorning players in based on having a certain amount of overall caps in the team.

A rigid game plan based on modelling how other teams have won and played. I.e box kicking with lots of set piece and mauls

It feels to me like that all involved in 2019 final were so impressed/scarred by SA that we are trying to (poorly) replicate their selection and tactics.

It's all so frustrating as we can all see that their talent is their. The talent is either left out or not allowed to play tactically.

Stats have their place. Link below to an article on how Liverpool FC has used analytics and they will also be looking at a data driven approach to take the emotion out of the search for Klopp's replacement.

Data Analytics in football: How LFC Used Data to Gain the Edge - Rockborne - Graduates

Liverpool Football Club's ascent to the pinnacle of English football wasn't just about passion or luck. Behind the loud roars of the Kop and the ceaseless

rockborne.com

But they can only ever be part of the story and the skill is not to be blinded by them.