England 2024/25

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's prob a reason why England are obsessed with him at LH

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not to say that AOF can't succeed, but if you're conceding that much weight you've got to be an excellent scrummaging technician and contributing elsewhere.

Ticks both those boxes tbf,
Feel like people have forgotten the names he has in his back pocket from last season, took him about 3 months to complete a scrum because he was just winning penalties at every one, and these were against big international players as well

 

[Rinkadink]

That's small by international standards now.

Vincent Koch is only 3kg heavier. 118kg and he's widely considered one of the best in the business on current form at tight head?

 

[Geordie]

Well hopefully Fordjour, Fasogabon and Sela can push each other on....

And Heyes...and Harper ..

Surely form all those we'll get a couple of top class ones.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Vincent Koch is only 3kg heavier. 118kg and he's widely considered one of the best in the business on current form at tight head?

He is, although not usually a first choice. And coming to the end of his career, the new breed is definitely getting bigger.

And that's still 3kg above where AOF wants to be, not where he is now. Plus Koch has the experience of 60 caps over 9 years, having plied his trade in 3 separate countries and coming from an environment where scrum is king.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ticks both those boxes tbf,
Feel like people have forgotten the names he has in his back pocket from last season, took him about 3 months to complete a scrum because he was just winning penalties at every one, and these were against big international players as well

Well let's hope he can kick on and do the hype justice.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The real question, is does SB have the intelligence to learn from his mistakes and the humility to ask for help on areas he's clear lacking.

I just get the impression (which is hopefully incorrect) that he's more likely to blame everything else rather than the obvious issues like game plan, subs, selecting three players who have hardly played.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yep, someone else's fault…..

Borthwick claims players not fit enough for Test rugby after South Africa loss

Steve Borthwick does not believe he will be sacked despite poor results while Freddie Stewart says the players should shoulder the blame

www.theguardian.com

 

[Crash Hamster]

Yep, someone else's fault…..

Borthwick claims players not fit enough for Test rugby after South Africa loss

Steve Borthwick does not believe he will be sacked despite poor results while Freddie Stewart says the players should shoulder the blame

www.theguardian.com

"They are Test match hardened, we are undercooked"

Can't wait for "Our players are tired after playing many games, they are fresh".

If only we'd had someone responsible for strength and conditioning. I also wonder how much extra you can impart into professional international-standard players. Surely, if they're good enough for international rugby, by definition they're fit for international rugby? Take athletics as an example: track and field competitors will peak for the Olympics. They can't maintain a plateau all season; England rugby know what their fixtures are, so why weren't the players peaking for the AIs?

So is Sniff Bostik suggesting that there are no players in England who are fit enough for international rugby? If there are, why isn't he picking them? If there aren't, why are we playing a tactic which exposes their lack of fitness?

My head hurts.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Can't wait for "Our players are tired after playing many games, they are fresh".

AKA The Summer Tour excuse.

They can't maintain a plateau all season; England rugby know what their fixtures are, so why weren't the players peaking for the AIs?

All the clubs' fault, obvs. But it will be fine next year with SB calling the central contracts shots. And to maximise our chances he has allocated all 25 he could have. Give or take…..

 

[Crash Hamster]

AKA The Summer Tour excuse.

Indeed...

I'd also completely missed the 'players aren't match fit, but I'm selecting people who have played 40 minutes of rugby in the last two months' paradox and the 'I wanted to bring in a Saracens S+C coach, which would help, even though several of my squad play for Saracens but weren't fit enough' paradox.

Blimey. Drowning not waving.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Steve Borthwick to miss out on six-figure bonus – but job safe for now

RFU chief executive Bill Sweeney and executive director of performance Conor O’Shea will also not receive windfall as governing body plans to review head coach’s position in new year

www.thetimes.com

'The Times understands that the RFU will review Borthwick's position as head coach in January, via its anonymous panel of experts, and the union's board. It expects Borthwick's England to win four out of their five Six Nations games next year, an upgrade from his target of three victories in the championship this year, which were achieved against Italy, Wales and Ireland.'

'It is unlikely the panel — which includes high-performance experts, Sweeney, O'Shea and other advisers — will recommend Borthwick be sacked, but if they do it will not be an expensive decision. Borthwick's notice period is six months, so the RFU would not need to pay his contract off up to the 2027 World Cup.

Sacking Borthwick in January could be unwise, as it would leave England with an interim coach for the Six Nations. Next July, England will play two Tests in Argentina, then take on the United States, while the British & Irish Lions play Australia. If Borthwick is to go that would be a more appropriate time for his successor to start. New Zealand, Argentina and Fiji are a kinder set of autumn fixtures slated for 2025.'

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Always a headscratcher when the HC blames the clubs despite internationals for most other teams also play in the Prem and don't have these issues

 

[Becca]

Not fit enough ? Well whose fault is that ?!
This blame game gets more absurd by the minute.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

So that's answered that then. He's too arrogant to understand his own failings.

Borthwick out now before we lose another year to him. Will give us a better chance of finding an actual coach.

Really gutting he's got no idea why he lost those games but why select Ford, Slade and Curry (unless I am remembering incorrectly) when they've played too little rugby.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Steve Borthwick to miss out on six-figure bonus – but job safe for now

RFU chief executive Bill Sweeney and executive director of performance Conor O’Shea will also not receive windfall as governing body plans to review head coach’s position in new year

www.thetimes.com

'The Times understands that the RFU will review Borthwick's position as head coach in January, via its anonymous panel of experts, and the union's board. It expects Borthwick's England to win four out of their five Six Nations games next year, an upgrade from his target of three victories in the championship this year, which were achieved against Italy, Wales and Ireland.'

'It is unlikely the panel — which includes high-performance experts, Sweeney, O'Shea and other advisers — will recommend Borthwick be sacked, but if they do it will not be an expensive decision. Borthwick's notice period is six months, so the RFU would not need to pay his contract off up to the 2027 World Cup.

Sacking Borthwick in January could be unwise, as it would leave England with an interim coach for the Six Nations. Next July, England will play two Tests in Argentina, then take on the United States, while the British & Irish Lions play Australia. If Borthwick is to go that would be a more appropriate time for his successor to start. New Zealand, Argentina and Fiji are a kinder set of autumn fixtures slated for 2025.'

Article goes on to say the RFU 'expects' England to beat Fra, Sco and Ita at HQ and Wales away in the 6N. Couple of those are very losable…..

 

[Geordie]

Bookies favourite to replace Borthwick...

2-1 ..Stuart Lancaster ...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Bookies favourite to replace Borthwick...

2-1 ..Stuart Lancaster ...

Doubt he'd touch the job with a barge pole even if he was the best coach in the world.

Unfortunately the RFU don't have a ******* clue and will not investigate themselves at all. Whether Borthwick stays or goes is almost irrelevant, there won't be any good coaches just floating around mid season, either the good ones are already employed and will be expensive to buy out or we have coaches that aren't already employed and probably for good reason.

England rugby have had systematic problems for the better part of a decade with support coaches being churned through, complete inconsistency and favouritism with player selection, a toxic working environment, crap contract negotiations, poor club and country coordination and now the farce of central contracts.

Unfortunately I think there is a deep seated rot in English rugby that we only succeed despite of, not because of. I don't think we will have prolonged success until that rot is dealt with and I don't think it ever will, as the people who should deal with it are right at the centre of it themselves.

 

[jordiev]

Ticks both those boxes tbf,
Feel like people have forgotten the names he has in his back pocket from last season, took him about 3 months to complete a scrum because he was just winning penalties at every one, and these were against big international players as well

This is huge tbh, in normal circumstances weight is proportional to strength, but this kid is just a freak where he folds people despite giving up weight. Sometimes there are just exceptions.

 

[jordiev]

Doubt he'd touch the job with a barge pole even if he was the best coach in the world.

Unfortunately the RFU don't have a ******* clue and will not investigate themselves at all. Whether Borthwick stays or goes is almost irrelevant, there won't be any good coaches just floating around mid season, either the good ones are already employed and will be expensive to buy out or we have coaches that aren't already employed and probably for good reason.

England rugby have had systematic problems for the better part of a decade with support coaches being churned through, complete inconsistency and favouritism with player selection, a toxic working environment, crap contract negotiations, poor club and country coordination and now the farce of central contracts.

Unfortunately I think there is a deep seated rot in English rugby that we only succeed despite of, not because of. I don't think we will have prolonged success until that rot is dealt with and I don't think it ever will, as the people who should deal with it are right at the centre of it themselves.

I agree, feels like an old boys club who pass around the top job while doing anything they can to maintain their meal ticket. Periodically sacrificing the HC to distract. Sweeney is truly horrendous and holding back a country that should be at the top table of the sport on money and player pool.

Saying that, I think Borthwick is terrible, but then that is one them as well, he was their guy before the 'process' and paid out the nose to get him. He is not getting the best out of this player pool in any way. Replacing him would likely result in improvement, even if not sorting the root cause of decades of underperformance.