England 2024/25

[Which Tyler]

Ultimately though, this is a results business, and I can't help compare this year to the year that got Eddie fired.

Just thought I'd have a look at the year that got the other "recent" coaches fired.

Eddie Jones: as above.

Stuart Lancaster: Was the world cup performance and confusion, rather than the year as a whole, but:
2015:
W: 8, D: 0, L: 4
6N: 2nd place
RWC: W: 2, L: 2 - crashed out at the group stage

Martin Johnson:
2011: W: 10, D: 0, L: 3
6N: 1st place
RWC: W: 4, L: 1 - 4th place

Brian Ashton:
2007/8: W: 9, D: 0, L: 8
SI: W: 0, L: 2 in South Africa
RWC: W: 5, L: 2 - 2nd place
6N: 2nd place

Andy Robinson:
2006: W: 3, D: 0, L: 8
6N: 4th place
SI: W: 0, L: 2 in Australia
AI: W v SA, L: 3 v NZ, Arg & SA

 

[Rugbyfan564]

 

[BPM]

Genuine question - why does everyone hate Sweeney? I get that the RFU regularly looks incompetent, but what's the personal ire with Sweeney in particular?

To be clear, I am not defending him, I'd just like to know what he's actually done apart from being a bit crap. I genuinely don't know.

 

[LIONSxv]

This is huge tbh, in normal circumstances weight is proportional to strength, but this kid is just a freak where he folds people despite giving up weight. Sometimes there are just exceptions.

I disagree that weight equals strength. Yes it's definite factor however muscle mass and acceleration are just as big. If weight was the presiding factor Unai Untonio would be the best TH to have ever played the game.

In fact his prowess at scrum time is far less than someone like Nche who gives him 30kg start.

Tony Woodcock who I rate as the best of the last 20 years was around 19 stone. Many were far bigger, then we have Nicolas Mas who was always 10-15 kg lighter than his counterparts.

 

[Reiser99]

Just thought I'd have a look at the year that got the other "recent" coaches fired.

Eddie Jones: as above.

Stuart Lancaster: Was the world cup performance and confusion, rather than the year as a whole, but:
2015:
W: 8, D: 0, L: 4
6N: 2nd place
RWC: W: 2, L: 2 - crashed out at the group stage

Martin Johnson:
2011: W: 10, D: 0, L: 3
6N: 1st place
RWC: W: 4, L: 1 - 4th place

Brian Ashton:
2007/8: W: 9, D: 0, L: 8
SI: W: 0, L: 2 in South Africa
RWC: W: 5, L: 2 - 2nd place
6N: 2nd place

Andy Robinson:
2006: W: 3, D: 0, L: 8
6N: 4th place
SI: W: 0, L: 2 in Australia
AI: W v SA, L: 3 v NZ, Arg & SA

Slight issue with the comparison is that Ashton, Johnson and Lancaster all left after a WC which is relatively normal. Only direct comparison for leaving mid cycle would be Robinson and Jones.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Funny that Johnson, Lancaster and Ashston can all get England to a 2nd 6 nations finish and yet SB can't.

Lots of people in the press call for SBs head but lots of ex players and rugby specific journalists and podcasts all saying we arnt that far away.

Guessing a loss to Japan would seal his fate or another 4th place finish come the 6 nations. Just don't get the impression SB can grow and change. Feels like we failed against all three SH teams and he doesn't know why.

Hope I'm wrong though.

 

[BPM]

This is the danger of using an isolated data point without context though. Ireland and Scotland are all much better teams than they were under all three and France are definitely better now than they were during Johnson and Lancaster's tenures. That's only slightly countered by Wales being much worse.

 

[Reiser99]

For me, I'm going to leave my final judgement on the Autumn until after the Japan game. For me Japan not even a must win. I want to see a good England performance and I'll especially be focusing on defence.

Excuses are not good enough at this point and suggesting it is just fitness or needing time to learn is a dangerous way of thinking. I don't think SB knows how to solve these problems, though better selection would be a good start.

England need a good performance against Japan to convince me there is any hope of an improvement coming.

 

[BrokenWing]

Nothing England do against Japan will be an indication of where England are at, that should have come in the three previous games.

They are on a hiding to nothing.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

This is the danger of using an isolated data point without context though. Ireland and Scotland are all much better teams than they were under all three and France are definitely better now than they were during Johnson and Lancaster's tenures. That's only slightly countered by Wales being much worse.

I'm not sure Scotland are really much better, they just seem to have our number. They seldom threaten to beat the big boys or win anything.

But either way it's all relative. If others have improved, why haven't we? All we hear about the objectives for successive Eng coaches is winning or RWCs / 6Ns or at least challenging hard and expecting a much higher win ratio than is currently being delivered.

And on your earlier question about Sweeney: Huge salary, disappointing results, too tight with Jones, disappointing appointment of SB, secrecy about the review panels. And that's just the England Senior men performance before you even think about what's happened to the rest of the game on his watch.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If he is JIFF next season no way is he leaving France imo

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

This is the danger of using an isolated data point without context though. Ireland and Scotland are all much better teams than they were under all three and France are definitely better now than they were during Johnson and Lancaster's tenures. That's only slightly countered by Wales being much worse.

Same as above really, if other counties have improved so should have we. You can only beat what's in front of you and it's odd that we've not had the boost of results you normally see from a new coach coming in, nor have we seen a gradual improvement. We've seen varying styles of play which is slightly worrying too.

Lots of warning signs there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If he is JIFF next season no way is he leaving France imo

Kinda think the same, but if someone comes with a big offer and the RFU throw him a central contract then it might tempt him - think he definitely wants to play for England because otherwise he'd have played for France at u20 level, there's no reason for him to have picked England when he's based out there

 

[BPM]

I'm not sure Scotland are really much better, they just seem to have our number. They seldom threaten to beat the big boys or win anything.

But either way it's all relative. If others have improved, why haven't we? All we hear about the objectives for successive Eng coaches is winning or RWCs / 6Ns or at least challenging hard and expecting a much higher win ratio than is currently being delivered.

And on your earlier question about Sweeney: Huge salary, disappointing results, too tight with Jones, disappointing appointment of SB, secrecy about the review panels. And that's just the England Senior men performance before you even think about what's happened to the rest of the game on his watch.

It just doesn't work like that in international sport. Sometimes, there are richer generations of talent than others. Only France seems have completely changed their approach to rugby at a systematic level but they have the money and the support for the game at a local level to do that. I think Ireland are more susceptible to breaks in their conveyor belt of talent.

Clubs can sustain success by buying what they need. You can't do that with international sport.

Have we made the most of the players we have? 100% no. However, I don't think you can just expect improvement because other teams have got better. Same goes for @Don't Skip Leg Day. Why should we have improved? The biggest mistake we made IMO was extending Eddie post 2019, but that only accounts for a fairly small period of time in the span being discussed.

Also, I think you've forgotten how bad Scotland were at times. They've had some very poor sides across the past 15yrs or so.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Kinda think the same, but if someone comes with a big offer and the RFU throw him a central contract then it might tempt him - think he definitely wants to play for England because otherwise he'd have played for France at u20 level, there's no reason for him to have picked England when he's based out there

Kinda think the same, but if someone comes with a big offer and the RFU throw him a central contract then it might tempt him - think he definitely wants to play for England because otherwise he'd have played for France at u20 level, there's no reason for him to have picked England when he's based out there

Can he play for France u20's?

 

[Geordie]

Kpoku is certainly a bright hope. Be interesting to see which way he goes...

Not a huge array of locks coming through. The ones I had hoped for seem to have stalled or suffered bad injuries putting back their development....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can he play for France u20's?

Yeah, u20 6N basically has no rules (living somewhere qualifies you, even if you have no other link/residency) - though I think he was already an England u20 player before moving to France so might have just thought he'd carry on (and he wouldn't be eligible for the Junior World Cup unless he has French ancestry)

I did just read an interview with him where he basically said he's keeping his options open re England/France, and while that might be just not **** off Racing it does feel more like he's seriously considering France - I remember an interview with his Brother where he said they'd all settled into France really well because French was their first language at home growing up - would take a very special offer to get him to trade Paris for somewhere in England

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Yeah, u20 6N basically has no rules (living somewhere qualifies you, even if you have no other link/residency) - though I think he was already an England u20 player before moving to France so might have just thought he'd carry on (and he wouldn't be eligible for the Junior World Cup unless he has French ancestry)

I did just read an interview with him where he basically said he's keeping his options open re England/France, and while that might be just not **** off Racing it does feel more like he's seriously considering France - I remember an interview with his Brother where he said they'd all settled into France really well because French was their first language at home growing up - would take a very special offer to get him to trade Paris for somewhere in England

France might have its own rules. For its seniors it requires a French passport.

 

[Booboobang]

Funny that Johnson, Lancaster and Ashston can all get England to a 2nd 6 nations finish and yet SB can't.

Lots of people in the press call for SBs head but lots of ex players and rugby specific journalists and podcasts all saying we arnt that far away.

Guessing a loss to Japan would seal his fate or another 4th place finish come the 6 nations. Just don't get the impression SB can grow and change. Feels like we failed against all three SH teams and he doesn't know why.

Hope I'm wrong though.

The thing with the 'not far away' narrative I do not like, is its selective memory, oh yes wer almsot beat these teams, but lets not forget out actual wins this year, all 3 were tiny margins and slight bounces here or there and we are winless on the year.

 

[higgik]

Yeah, u20 6N basically has no rules (living somewhere qualifies you, even if you have no other link/residency) - though I think he was already an England u20 player before moving to France so might have just thought he'd carry on (and he wouldn't be eligible for the Junior World Cup unless he has French ancestry)

I did just read an interview with him where he basically said he's keeping his options open re England/France, and while that might be just not **** off Racing it does feel more like he's seriously considering France - I remember an interview with his Brother where he said they'd all settled into France really well because French was their first language at home growing up - would take a very special offer to get him to trade Paris for somewhere in England

Potential 'big' lock goes missing, not like we need some!!!
Poor management by all involved.