England 2024/25

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Bit of a interesting watch didn't expect Youngs to be so grilling tbh

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Interesting that Kpoku's Racing contract has a break clause if he wants to join a prem side before the 27 RWC

 

[Booboobang]

I wonder how much of that is the need for decent 6s and then bulking as they grew.

If we'd had CCS smashing it up at 6 as he has been, I wonder if we'd have looked at Chessum at 6.

On the flip side you'd never need Eben at 6 when you have mini Eben in a storming PSDT there.

PSTD also just that generalist, starting at lock, struggling early, transitioning to 6 and now can cover both while being the best 6 on the planet. I think it is more meta, we saw a massive shift to wanting your 6 to just be another lock, another lineout option and tackling machine, and that still holds, not many true 6's at the top level and coles, chessum and martin are all very young and came through during that change in tactics.

7 is also moving, for years we yearned for a elite jackler, now with breakdown changes and reffing, true jacklers have far less value due to not converting on TO nearly as much, so you have a shift to a traditional 6 role/underhill mould.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Agree to some degree but Will Evans and Reffel both still cause havoc in the premiership.

The back row had and will always be about balance bot just of the backrow but also the locks as well.

For me Itoje has and is the problem with him being such a 'poster boy' player and yet he's not really a 4 or 5. Very good player but he's caused problems with balance in the park for quite some time. Almost wished he'd have focussed on 6 so we could have had a monster at 4 and a taller monster at 5.

Imagine if we'd have kept Attwood around with a lineout specialist next to him, Itoje at 6 and then a proper 7 and a carrying 8.

 

[Geordie]

Agree to some degree but Will Evans and Reffel both still cause havoc in the premiership.

The back row had and will always be about balance bot just of the backrow but also the locks as well.

For me Itoje has and is the problem with him being such a 'poster boy' player and yet he's not really a 4 or 5. Very good player but he's caused problems with balance in the park for quite some time. Almost wished he'd have focussed on 6 so we could have had a monster at 4 and a taller monster at 5.

Imagine if we'd have kept Attwood around with a lineout specialist next to him, Itoje at 6 and then a proper 7 and a carrying 8.

I always thought it was going to be Lawes and Attwood as the locks for years! What a pairing.

I agree if only Itoje has focused on 6...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We talk about game plans and lament the loss of Mitchell etc. But games still start with the forwards.

After a while the games all merge into one, but how do we think the pack has gone? Have we dominated any particular aspects, been weak in any (restarts…..), have they been getting us on the front foot? Who's stood out, who hasn't.

For me I think we've mostly been sort of OKish but not really any more. A few players have had moments, but as a whole we've not been dominant.

On an upward trajectory: Stuart, CCS

Senior players in line with expectations: Underhill

Have definitely seen them better: Genge, George, Earl, Martin. Also Itoje who's had some great moments but also a poor match v SA and lost the restart that led to the Aus winning try. He's also been captain when things have gone awry in the final quarters (several factors at play, but the on field leadership has to be one of them - maybe Jones had a point).

Bye and thanks for the memories: Cole, Dombrandt

Been exposed a bit but worth investing in: Baxter

Good to have him back: LCD

Can't really say: Isiekwe, T Curry, B Curry, Dan (not sure if injured or dropped).

 

[BPM]

Pretty much. Jack of all trades master of none.

Not sure about that at all. Itoje, Chessum and Martin are all very good locks. I think it's grossly unfair to say Itoje is not a 'master' of his craft at lock. I'd argue Martin and Chessum are well on the way. I'm not keen to see Itoje, Martin or Coles on the flank ever again, but fine with Chessum double hatting. He's good at 6.

It's not unusual for players to swap between the back row and second row earlier in the careers and TBH, I see it as a good thing in terms of broadening their overall skillset. Few do both well. I think Martin is now mostly settled as a lock and Coles definitely seems to be going that way at Saints.

I've never been overly impressed by Isiekwe. For a huge, athletic guy I've always felt he's punched below his weight. However, I'm not sure how much his heart issue held him back and the fact that he's still relatively young means it may that his best years may be yet to come. He's time as a 4th or 5th choice IMO.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I always thought it was going to be Lawes and Attwood as the locks for years! What a pairing.

I agree if only Itoje has focused on 6...

Attwood was criminally underrated. Lawes and Launch looked like they had it nailed for a while.

 

[Saintjay]

Not sure about that at all. Itoje, Chessum and Martin are all very good locks. I think it's grossly unfair to say Itoje is not a 'master' of his craft at lock. I'd argue Martin and Chessum are well on the way. I'm not keen to see Itoje, Martin or Coles on the flank ever again, but fine with Chessum double hatting. He's good at 6.

It's not unusual for players to swap between the back row and second row earlier in the careers and TBH, I see it as a good thing in terms of broadening their overall skillset. Few do both well. I think Martin is now mostly settled as a lock and Coles definitely seems to be going that way at Saints.

I've never been overly impressed by Isiekwe. For a huge, athletic guy I've always felt he's punched below his weight. However, I'm not sure how much his heart issue held him back and the fact that he's still relatively young means it may that his best years may be yet to come. He's time as a 4th or 5th choice IMO.

I'm not saying they are not good locks. But that's it, they are good at being locks.

I just subscribe to the theory you play your best players in there best positions. Which is usually where they play at club level.

It's nice to have cover and players who can play across the back row or back three. But it's rare to find many who do all three positions very well. It's more being really good in one, passable In the other.

 

[Geordie]

Attwood was criminally underrated. Lawes and Launch looked like they had it nailed for a while.

The best lock pairing we've had in recent years has been Itoje and Kruis by some distance...we need to find a new world beating combo.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've never been overly impressed by Isiekwe. For a huge, athletic guy I've always felt he's punched below his weight. However, I'm not sure how much his heart issue held him back and the fact that he's still relatively young means it may that his best years may be yet to come. He's time as a 4th or 5th choice IMO.

For the eye catching ball in hand stuff I'd probably agree, but not really elsewhere. In defence he's probably more of a stopper than a slicer in half, but still pretty effective.

That peak years Sarries trusted him from an early age also speaks volumes. They had some serious, experienced units in their back 5 and weren't prone to carrying passengers. That's club level but he was holding his own with internationals or top level seasoned club players.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The best lock pairing we've had in recent years has been Itoje and Kruis by some distance...we need to find a new world beating combo.

I think we have stopped accepting that sometimes just being a big, consistant brute is something a team needs. Not every player needs to be x factor players, sometimes you just need a guy who will do everything to a very high level game after game.

Underhill is exactly this sort of player. His x factor is just his sheer, consistent physicality.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Green has signed a new contract at quins, so will be EPQ soon. Not sure if he will get/wants a shot, but may be an interesting one

 

[Geordie]

I think we have stopped accepting that sometimes just being a big, consistant brute is something a team needs. Not every player needs to be x factor players, sometimes you just need a guy who will do everything to a very high level game after game.

Underhill is exactly this sort of player. His x factor is just his sheer, consistent physicality.

Totally agree. Sometimes you just want a huge lump to hit things repeatedly in attack and defence - hard!

With regards to Kruis he was not a X-Factor player. He was 6'6, just shy of 20 stone and just did the core things well. Lineout, breakdown etc etc. He was also intelligent...he had a rugby brain. That complimented Itoje very well.

Ive heard several times this is one of Isiekwes biggest flaws...he doesnt have that "rugby brain". He reminds me of Twelvetrees...the perfect physical specimen for his position. Yet fails to get there.

George Martin can be similar to Kruis... just needs to up his lineout work. But if you have CCS at 8 and Chessum / HIll at 6 suddenly thats not such an issue

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

I hate it when athletic locks like Itoje, Lawes and Chessum play in the back row. Their USP is that they are more mobile than all the other locks and so this gives them the potential to be world class. If you stick them in the back row where everyone is athletic and mobile you have taken their USP away from them and just created an ordinary back rower.

 

[Saintjay]

I hate it when athletic locks like Itoje, Lawes and Chessum play in the back row. Their USP is that they are more mobile than all the other locks and so this gives them the potential to be world class. If you stick them in the back row where everyone is athletic and mobile you have taken their USP away from them and just created an ordinary back rower.

In big Courts defence and with my Saints bias he was a very, very good back row player.

 

[Geordie]

Theres a few of them about...

Lawes, Chessum, Ollivon, PSDT, Roumat... all 6'6 or over.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

My understanding is it's an eight team franchise that travels the globe like F1. It's more 'events weekend with rugby' rather than just rugby.

It'll die a death like rugby X did and probably not even get off the ground.

Aye, corporate ******** and 65% of the tickets will be comped. It's a rancid idea and any quality player should be steering well clear

 

[BPM]

In big Courts defence and with my Saints bias he was a very, very good back row player.

That's not Saints bias. Lawes developed into a truly top class 6.

In general though, I mainly agree with the point @AngloScotsHybrid was trying to make.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In big Courts defence and with my Saints bias he was a very, very good back row player.

He was. But it took him time to get there.

Plus he struggled to keep on the weight that's really now needed for lock.

Plus he was simply more gifted than most. An exceptional athlete and an outstanding rugby player.