England 2024/25

[BPM]

I can understand him being gutted to miss out on the RWC without a proper chance to prove himself. What I can't get behind is his reaction to not being picked when he's not been outstanding.

 

[LIONSxv]

I can understand him being gutted to miss out on the RWC without a proper chance to prove himself. What I can't get behind is his reaction to not being picked when he's not been outstanding.

I can see it both ways. He was with Aldritt (stats wise better than GA) the best 8 in the Top 14 and was calling Montpelliers line out at times. He has been hampered by injury a bit at Glou and probably sees a can't be arsed Billy at the WC. I get his frustration to a degree

 

[Reiser99]

Also remember we had years of Jones messing players about, asking them to work on stuff and it was still never good enough. Entirely possible that Borthwick has learnt some of this too.

Definitely there is a lack of clarity around the England setup, both in terms of selections and contracts etc... from a fan point view. If players and coaches also feel this way then you can't blame them for being frustrated. If Borthwick had told him I want to see x, y and a then fine, but it sounds like he's told Mercer that he's not the type of player he wants for his type of team (which if true, I find very worrying).

 

[Geordie]

Dombrandts selection is the interesting one for me. We know his game...mobile 8, and more handling, offloading than heavy duty carrier. Dombrandt also brings a Very Strong turniver game...breakdown etc.

Earl's emergence this world Cup really gives SB some options. He's a complete player in many ways. He can be your out and out 7, he can play an all action 8, and probably play the 6 role as he even carries well in heavy traffic. Playing him with another big powerful carrier / tackler (Roots, Isiekwe, CCS etc) on the flank means he could pick Dombrandt at 8..and doesn't lose anything physically, yet gain in attack...and have an added breakdown threat.

Could be the hint of a slight change in tactics.....but also shows that SB has options to the balance of the back row...

 

[Geordie]

Also remember we had years of Jones messing players about, asking them to work on stuff and it was still never good enough. Entirely possible that Borthwick has learnt some of this too.

Eddie challenged players. He tested them mentally. Some players bought in to it and became much better...(Johnny May etc) other didn't take well-to-do this kind of challenge.

Ollie Lawrence is one who I think is now showing that. He was publicly challenged by Eddie (which I don't like in all honesty) but it seems to have been the catalyst/ driver to Lawrence becoming a very good 13. .and still improving.

 

[Reiser99]

Eddie challenged players. He tested them mentally. Some players bought in to it and became much better...(Johnny May etc) other didn't take well-to-do this kind of challenge.

Ollie Lawrence is one who I think is now showing that. He was publicly challenged by Eddie (which I don't like in all honesty) but it seems to have been the catalyst/ driver to Lawrence becoming a very good 13. .and still improving.

Gonna call BS on that. How many players actually looked better under Jones by the end of his reign? We already know his successor in Aus after 2003 called them broken. We already know some of the ridiculous stories about how he treated players and coaches. He was and is a bully he refused to give players any freedom. If Borthwick is even remotely like this then we will have another 4 years of mediocrity.

 

[Geordie]

Gonna call BS on that. How many players actually looked better under Jones by the end of his reign? We already know his successor in Aus after 2003 called them broken. We already know some of the ridiculous stories about how he treated players and coaches. He was and is a bully he refused to give players any freedom. If Borthwick is even remotely like this then we will have another 4 years of mediocrity.

Call BS all you want...

 

[Which Tyler]

I mean I feel for him but he has been underwhelming since coming back.

Seems harsh.
He was the stand out performer in the back row before suffering his potentially season ending injury.
He's been good, if not as outstanding since coming back on the field 4 months earlier than expected.

Oh, and he is a better #8 than those selected

 

[BrokenWing]

Eddie challenged players. He tested them mentally. Some players bought in to it and became much better...(Johnny May etc) other didn't take well-to-do this kind of challenge.

Ollie Lawrence is one who I think is now showing that. He was publicly challenged by Eddie (which I don't like in all honesty) but it seems to have been the catalyst/ driver to Lawrence becoming a very good 13. .and still improving.

The issue is this isn't a one size fits all treatment, some people respond to it and some don't. I would argue it didn't drive Lawrence to be the player he is today, and possibly set him back.

Eddie made changes seemingly blindly in a way that implied some players had played badly through no real fault of their own, whereas some players who weren't in the best of form got to Farrell on regardless.

Did I say Farrell? I meant Farrell.. CARRY! I meant to say carry... Farrell on regardless... CARRY!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Experience in the team is needed. Best this back 5

4 Itoje
5 chessum
6 Underhill
7 Earl
8 Dombrant

That actually looks top notch even though we are missing a shed load.

You can make some really good teams from the squad, let's see though what we actually get.

1. Marler
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. chessum
6. Underhill
7. Earl
8. dombrant
9. Mitchell
10. M Smith
11. Daly
12. Slade
13. Lawrence
14. Freeman
15. Furbank

16. Dan
17. Obano
18. Stuart
19. Coles
20. Roots or Pearson
21. Care
22. Ford or Smith (injury pending)
23. The welsh kid

That that's a proper team. Guessing we will get limited steward at 15 unfortunately, but could swap him out for Daly to keep some experience but not sure if he'd got destroyed on the wing with his lack of pace and truck like turning curve.

 

[Geordie]

The issue is this isn't a one size fits all treatment, some people respond to it and some don't. I would argue it didn't drive Lawrence to be the player he is today, and possibly set him back.

Eddie made changes seemingly blindly in a way that implied some players had played badly through no real fault of their own, whereas some players who weren't in the best of form got to Farrell on regardless.

Did I say Farrell? I meant Farrell.. CARRY! I meant to say carry... Farrell on regardless... CARRY!

Oh I agree...and thats why I said..it worked for some whilst it didn't for others. I also think it generally only works short term..hence why Jones reigns start to go south after about 4 years...

Farrell...well to be fair Jones isn't the only one who played Farrell relentlessly.

Lawrence well we'll never really know...but

 

[BPM]

Seems harsh.
He was the stand out performer in the back row before suffering his potentially season ending injury.
He's been good, if not as outstanding since coming back on the field 4 months earlier than expected.

Oh, and he is a better #8 than those selected

I don't entirely disagree. Although, as we've barely seen him at test level, I don't think we can definitively say that.

As I said earlier, I think Dombrandt's reaction to being dropped from the RWC is a marked contrast. This reflects poorly on Mercer's attitude, (not on his playing ability).

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I've heard too many stories from players on how horrid Eddie was to ever think he was anything other than a piece of ****.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Don't think he's eligible for Scotland - he was eligible for age grade on residency, not family ties
Wonder if he's tempted to move to Super Rugby and try for the ABs?

I feel like he should've been in the EPS, even if he has been quieter since the ankle injury - he was excellent up until the injury and has enough credit in the bank for his form in France IMO

He might not be wanted by them - the famous 'No dickheads' rule. He comes across a bit of one there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He might not be wanted by them - the famous 'No dickheads' rule. He comes across a bit of one there.

I don't think he does
Anyone would be ****** off that a banned fat lazy binny went to the world cup ahead of them
People want rugby players to have a personality but God forbid they show it in the press

 

[TopTen2003]

I agree Mercer can be better for Gloucester than we've seen, but we've seen Dombrandt play well domestically and fail to translate that a few times internationally, so to lose out to him probably hurts a little bit.

Surprised SB is looking for big 8s given the only one he had in the RWC arguably cost us the try in the semi final and how well Earl was playing.

I hope he shows a flexibility in his approach as and when we learn where the shortcomings are.

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't entirely disagree. Although, as we've barely seen him at test level, I don't think we can definitively say that.

As I said earlier, I think Dombrandt's reaction to being dropped from the RWC is a marked contrast. This reflects poorly on Mercer's attitude, (not on his playing ability).

We've barely seen any of them at test level, so we can't definitively say anything much about any of them at that level (except that Earl can bring his club form, whilst Dombrandt can't / hasn't).

At club level, Mercer is a better 8 than those selected (oh, and it's IMO, not definitive anyway).

I fully endorse Mercer's attitude to being overlooked. I think he was (very) unwise to go public with it (unless the bridges with Borthwick were already burned in the summer, just behind closed doors - in which case, it's still unwise).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I agree Mercer can be better for Gloucester than we've seen, but we've seen Dombrandt play well domestically and fail to translate that a few times internationally, so to lose out to him probably hurts a little bit.

For me it's CCS that should be swapped with Mercer - CCS should be in the A team (hell he's young enough he could play in the u20 6N if he wanted)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

With Jones, there is nothing wrong with being a very tough coach in and of itself. The real issue is being an arbitrary coach and Jones came across as extremely arbitrary. Players clearly were not being judged against the same criteria. If it's the same strict criteria for everyone and you just can't hack it that's one thing but having a player face a strict criteria, go out and perform and then get dropped whilst someone who hasn't performed in ages stays in, that does nobody any good. At the start of his tenure Jones was strict but also seemed to be fair in his treatment of the players and it seemed everyone was buying into it. Over time more and more of his biases rose to the top as he began for form his group of favourites.

With Mercer, I have been a big proponent of him and can understand why he is very ****** off but that article will have done nothing to help him. Rumour I have heard from those who know him is that he is extremely arrogant, the article kinda lends weight to that. As mentioned previously, if you are snubbed the best thing is to go out there and continue putting in top level performances (ok Glos are crap but you can still stand out in a crap side in both ways.)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

He might not be wanted by them - the famous 'No dickheads' rule. He comes across a bit of one there.

Something tells me that the team which welcomes Frizell and Reece may not have too much of an issue with Mercer's slightly self-entitled press piece.