England 2024/25

[Saintjay]

Our defence got us to a World Cup semi without him and without an attack. Not sure he improved it at all if we look at stats on tries conceded etc.

I'm sure he's a great coach but we didn't need a defence coach, we needed an attack one. We should have built on what was working rather than scrapping everything.

Most top 6 teams would have sleep walked to a semi-final given the group we had. Even still in 2023 we came out with a 56% win ratio. Doesn't scream are defence was fine

 

[BPM]

Even if he's physically there (and as a teenager he probably isn't quite yet), what he won't yet have is the experience to instinctively, consistently do the right thing under the highest pressure.

Analysis wise the line out for one offers plenty of scope. Does he have 'tells' that give opponents an idea of what he's going to do? Is he the go to man in defensive line outs? Also, wouldn't in the least surprise me if coaches have defensive dossiers along the lines of X only makes 50% of tackles on his left hand side.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot to learn/hasn't got lots of room to improve. Good coaching and experience should take care of that though.

What has got people excited are Kpoku's natural attributes and personal qualities. Those are a lot more unusual and definitely not as coachable, hence why he has a bit of hype around him.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I don't want to start a fight, but come on. We've had three def systems in 2 years which have been "ok" - "ok but I can see what is happening' - and "umm nah"

I stand by that. We had a good defence and needed an attack. If we had an attack at all we'd have made the WC final.

I'm not saying our defence we perfect but it was good and improving it rather than change the entire system would have been a better choice.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm of the opinion that if you're good enough, you're old enough. Players should be selected based on their ability to perform in the team and little else. Arbitrary factors like age, height, weight etc should all be secondary to their actual performance. Mercer again always sticks out for me, I was on his bandwagon back when he was in U20's and the common criticism was he was too small and wouldn't be able to handle bigger guys. Nothing he did changed that perception until he went to France and was excelling against some of the biggest and best players in the world. Even then his size and weight were brought up, despite mountains of evidence it counted for sweet **** all on the field.

I'm tired of the apparent coaching by spreadsheet mentality we seem to have in England (club and country), if players don't tick the right boxes that statistics say need to be ticked, they never really get a proper chance no matter how they perform. Meanwhile someone that does tick the boxes but actually performs poorly stays in because spreadsheet says so.

I do feel a lot of England coaches don't even watch the games and go over footage, instead just pouring through tons of stats.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm of the opinion that if you're good enough, you're old enough. Players should be selected based on their ability to perform in the team and little else. Arbitrary factors like age, height, weight etc should all be secondary to their actual performance. Mercer again always sticks out for me, I was on his bandwagon back when he was in U20's and the common criticism was he was too small and wouldn't be able to handle bigger guys. Nothing he did changed that perception until he went to France and was excelling against some of the biggest and best players in the world. Even then his size and weight were brought up, despite mountains of evidence it counted for sweet **** all on the field.

I'm tired of the apparent coaching by spreadsheet mentality we seem to have in England (club and country), if players don't tick the right boxes that statistics say need to be ticked, they never really get a proper chance no matter how they perform. Meanwhile someone that does tick the boxes but actually performs poorly stays in because spreadsheet says so.

I do feel a lot of England coaches don't even watch the games and go over footage, instead just pouring through tons of stats.

What about non-arbitrary factors like physical or psychological maturity? Or nuance around how much game-time?
Is there ever a case for protecting players from themselves? or from their coaches, for that matter?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

What about non-arbitrary factors like physical or psychological maturity? Or nuance around how much game-time?
Is there ever a case for protecting players from themselves? or from their coaches, for that matter?

If they are displaying that they are already doing ok on those factors then what's the issue? People mature at different rates eg I think Sam Underhill has had a cool head since day 1 whilst others took a good few years to keep their aggression controlled so it was used productively.

I'm not saying throw the flavour of the month into international sides and dump them if it doesn't work, which has happened in the past. What I am saying is that someone who is doing everything right in the games they play should not be denied a chance because of some arbitrary factor that isn't being shown on the field. If you have a 20 year old who is consistently playing right on the edge of legality but very rarely gets penalised or does anything stupid and a 28 year old who is constantly infringing, getting carded and doing stupid stuff, would you deny the 20 year old a position because they are too young to be mentally mature but give the place to the 28 year old because they "should" be more mature, regardless of what actually happens?

I'm saying judge players by what they actually show on the field, not hypothetical stuff that has little relation to the observed reality.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Furbank doesn't look good leaving the pitch for Saints - maybe a broken forearm?
Bulls player's arm in-between Furbanks body and forearm and then both bodyweight's landed right on top of it

Might be time for Steward to bring some club form to the international stage

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm saying judge players by what they actually show on the field, not hypothetical stuff that has little relation to the observed reality.

I was explicitly not asking about the hypothetical stuff though.
I'm talking about frontal and pre-frontal cortex development, the bones of an adult, not child, that sort of thing.

Taken to the extreme (so reductio ad absurdum alert) a 12 year old isn't old enough to play premiership rugby, however talented they are, and however early their growth spurt, and however much they can benchpress.
Less absurdly, a 20 year old does not have anatomically adult hips and knees. Whilst I have no problem with a 20 year old prop getting prem level game time, I absolutely don't think they should be subjected to the grind of starting week in - week out at that level. I don't propose how much is enough, nor how much is too much, but I'm interested in the nuance. None of which means that anyone else to be, of course.

 

[Rinkadink]

protecting players from themselves? or from their coaches

I think we should be more worried about the England coaching than the clubs. Randall's form has dropped off a cliff after playing roughly an hour's rugby in two months, not to mention when he did play those sporadic minutes, he was clearly under instructions from both coaches and senior squadmates to play in the most uninspiring manner possible. Wouldn't be the first (nor probably last) time England coach the talent out of players. This is one of the few positives of Ibitoye not being involved so far, he's kept well away so the risk isn't there.

 

[Rinkadink]

protecting players from themselves? or from their coaches

I think we should be more worried about the England coaching than the clubs. Randall's form has dropped off a cliff after playing roughly an hour's rugby in two months, not to mention when he did play those sporadic minutes, he was clearly under instructions from both coaches and senior squadmates to play in the most uninspiring manner possible. Wouldn't be the first (nor probably last) time England coach the talent out of players. This is one of the few positives of Ibitoye not being involved so far, he's kept well away so the risk isn't there.

Might be time for Steward to bring some club form to the international stage

Malins should be back from injury soonish, just throwing that out there.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

England will play a France XV without Premiership finalists or Lions – here is who they should pick

Steve Borthwick’s side will host Les Bleus in an uncapped match at Twickenham on June 21

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Booboobang]

Disagree I feel you change the rules then Japan will come looking for a lot more also

One thing people need to consider in this argument going forward, is the more restrictive rules that international leagues have put in place for foreign player slots. Japan for example sides are limited to 3 capped foreign internationals in their gameday squad and only 4 on the field at once including uncapped, this has trended less and less. France is continually ratcheting down the number of foreign players that can be signed and increasing the number of JIFF plauyers that have to be included.

The global trend is that the big paying leagues are allowing less and less foreign born players and the idea that the prem is going to nosedive in quality if players playing abroad are picked is no longer that much of a worry at all tbh, there just arent enough slots in those leagues to drain the league, and in reality those leagues are not just going to suddenly pick up english playrs, they are still more interested in the true top of the international game or players from test nations where they dont lose their players for international windows as readily to fill limited slots.

I think protecting the prem was once a very fair point, but with the options decreasing the amount of players they are going to pick up I just dont see it being a real threat anymore.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

One thing people need to consider in this argument going forward, is the more restrictive rules that international leagues have put in place for foreign player slots. Japan for example sides are limited to 3 capped foreign internationals in their gameday squad and only 4 on the field at once including uncapped, this has trended less and less. France is continually ratcheting down the number of foreign players that can be signed and increasing the number of JIFF plauyers that have to be included.

The global trend is that the big paying leagues are allowing less and less foreign born players and the idea that the prem is going to nosedive in quality if players playing abroad are picked is no longer that much of a worry at all tbh, there just arent enough slots in those leagues to drain the league, and in reality those leagues are not just going to suddenly pick up english playrs, they are still more interested in the true top of the international game or players from test nations where they dont lose their players for international windows as readily to fill limited slots.

I think protecting the prem was once a very fair point, but with the options decreasing the amount of players they are going to pick up I just dont see it being a real threat anymore.

France have to be careful because if it goes to court those rules are probably against EU law. Some of the French clubs are wealthy enough to consider that. In fact it's perfectly possibly the current rules for the Premiership could be found illegal if challenged as they could be seen as discrimination against Scottish and Welsh people.

 

[Booboobang]

France have to be careful because if it goes to court those rules are probably against EU law. Some of the French clubs are wealthy enough to consider that. In fact it's perfectly possibly the current rules for the Premiership could be found illegal if challenged as they could be seen as discrimination against Scottish and Welsh people.

It would need to be a club challenging it, and basically every club has bought in fully to the JIFF system, they simply moved their recruitment models to target extrmely young international players or have immense academy and scouting systems. It works out for them perfectly, they still have amazing crowds and it saves them a ton of money in expenditure. Essentially now have a system where their teams are mostly 'local' players that the fans love and they dont have to pay massive wages for mediocre international players.

Doubt they ever go complete ban on foregin players meaning it rarely becomes an actual issue.

Basically though, non prem options becoming less and less, so the fear of every good player leaving is just a non issue anymore, limited slots for players of every nationality and more incentive for said international options to develop local players.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

It would need to be a club challenging it, and basically every club has bought in fully to the JIFF system, they simply moved their recruitment models to target extrmely young international players or have immense academy and scouting systems. It works out for them perfectly, they still have amazing crowds and it saves them a ton of money in expenditure. Essentially now have a system where their teams are mostly 'local' players that the fans love and they dont have to pay massive wages for mediocre international players.

Doubt they ever go complete ban on foregin players meaning it rarely becomes an actual issue.

Basically though, non prem options becoming less and less, so the fear of every good player leaving is just a non issue anymore, limited slots for players of every nationality and more incentive for said international options to develop local players.

A non French EU citizenship player in theory could challenge as well.

The rules in Premiership could in theory be challenged by any player who has switched from England to Scotland for example.

 

[Booboobang]

A non French EU citizenship player in theory could challenge as well.

The England eligible rules could in theory be challenged by any player who has switched from England to Scotland for example. .

Who is the non french EU player? Irish players stay in ireland, england, scotland and wales not in the EU, SH nations not in the EU.

To have a case you would have to prove that you were looked over on basis of nationality rather than ability, something that is almost imposible to prove. Most other EU players like the portugese or italians that play in france are JIFF qualified.

 

[Booboobang]

It would in paper just be that the JIFF qualified rules themselves discriminate in a way that is against EU law. In football all the various EU homegrown rules cover EU citizens rather than just the country of the league. .

In which case they could adjust to allow EU citizens, but there is no realistic instince where this ever gets challenged since power brokers are making more money with the system as it, even with adjustment, still does not cover british players.

These systems are all over EU nations in football leagues as well. So I am pretty sure there is no case since it has precident in other sports. All they would have to do is point at any of the portugese or italian born players who are eligible under the JIFF system to show that it isnt restricive to EU citizens.

Not to get political, but with the current trend in EU politics, natavist protectionist policies are not going to be overturned by them in the current climate or in the future with the trend of EU elections. Imagine the **** show it would cause with le penn, meloni, a very right wing incoming german chancelor that is under threat from a rising AFD....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Match day limits don't seem to be slowing down the Japanese sides, if anything they're signing more foreign players each season - they just rotate their teams more
Faf de Klerk barely plays out in Japan, but they still pay him £1m - the companies that own the sides have so much money that the highest paid players in the world are just pocket change

 

[Rugbyfan564]

The Times suggesting George Furbank's arm Injury might is the type that would see him miss some but not all of the Six Nations.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

If anyone suggests Malins again I'll burn their ******* car