England 2023/24

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not sure how we have a golden generation feel about us as that's what the 07ish team was supposed to be. It's certainly quite a prolonged golden generation if it is one.

I'm sure there's plenty of excitement in the job for him, certainly he'll get way more access and oversight of the player's than with England.

Suspect that is the main thing, for SA he had access to the main core of the team all year round.


Having that much control over the group you can really mold players into what you want fitness wise.


I just can't see how you can do that with England, you basically have to go though the clubs S&C teams and middle manage them

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm sure there's plenty of excitement in the job for him, certainly he'll get way more access and oversight of the player's than with England.

Very true.

I'm just hacked off that we've lost someone seemingly good to a competitor after a very short time. Particularly grates that it comes at the first time in ages we've looked liked getting some of our sh*t together.

There are plenty of other S&C coaches but whoever comes in will have their own, different, ideas and will have to start again building relationships with the clubs and individual players.

We've also had Sinfield changing roles and then going - or possibly not. Far from Jones territory yet, but is a high calibre, stable coaching team too much to ask for?

I'm also concerned about our scrum coach. His CV's light and our propping resources are pretty thin. Has he got the experience to make the best of what we've got?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Does the Argentina v NZ result put England's performances into any kind of context?

 

[Which Tyler]

Does the Argentina v NZ result put England's performances into any kind of context?

SBarrett and Tuipolotu are better than their replacements?
Argentina are further along than us in developing their attack?

 

[BPM]

Does the Argentina v NZ result put England's performances into any kind of context?

As @Which Tyler said, yesterday's side was missing a couple of experienced players but IMO, I think the result underlines that the tour was a missed opportunity. We should have come away with at least one win.

 

[Reiser99]

So does the second result against Argentina also put England into context? For me probably. England are just lacking that clinical edge of finishing off chances. I think 5th is about right based on recent performances. However, we're still missing something that means we can regularly beat the top 4. On a good day maybe we'll win, but unlikely to be consistently. Argentina are similar, on a good day they can win, but then they can also be beaten like they were.

 

[BPM]

Not really. In a weird way, I'm actually more comfortable our two narrow losses than Argentina's narrow win followed by a comprehensive defeat.

I still maintain it was a missed opportunity. I think we're better than Argentina so it's frustrating they picked up a win when we didn't manage it.

I agree with most of the post though - I think 5th is correct. My ranking would be 1. SA 2. Ireland 3. France 4. NZ. However, I think we are on a better growth trajectory right now than NZ and I don't think there's much in it. The top 3 are comfortably ahead for now, but I do wonder how that might change across the RWC cycle. It'll be interesting to see how Ireland evolve if Father Time starts reeling in some of their elder statesman - O'Mahoney's race is pretty much already run and Aki's 34 and Gibson-Park and Beirne are 32. Given that they're key players, they'll take some replacing.

 

[Noonz]

The four South African players on Steve Borthwick's England radar

It is a perfect time for the leading teams in the northern hemisphere to preview and review ahead of the Autumn Nations Series.

www.rugbypass.com

Hmm

 

[Becca]

The four South African players on Steve Borthwick's England radar

It is a perfect time for the leading teams in the northern hemisphere to preview and review ahead of the Autumn Nations Series.

www.rugbypass.com

Hmm

NO !!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Obv it's just clickbait, but if any of them do get capped then it should be instant dismissal for Borthwick

 

[Saintjay]

Wasn't Green mentioned awhile back? Rugby pass being Rugby pass.

 

[Becca]

Wasn't Green mentioned awhile back? Rugby pass being Rugby pass.

Green is mentioned all the time.
An SA friend of mine is literally begging Rassie to select him so we can't have him. I told him we don't want him !

 

[Reiser99]

Isn't this just a copy and paste job of a previous article? I'm sure the last one had the exact 4 names.

 

[BPM]

Yeah. Just a re-hash of another, very similar article. It's still a no thanks from me.

I think it's 90% speculation and pretty pointless considering most don't qualify for a good while yet. However …

Liebenberg could have some factual basis. Borthwick knows him well, he qualifies soon and is better than Roots IMO. He is also the kind of 6 I think Borthwick wants so I wouldn't be totally surprised.

BJVR (when qualified) potentially solves a problem. My preference would be that Atkinson, Kelly, Hartley or another young 12 does that before he becomes eligible.

As a Quins fan, I love watching Green, but I don't believe he's astute enough to be a test fullback. He's great in a side that is willing to run from anywhere, but I think he'd be exposed in a more tactically demanding role.

Vermeulen is no better than any of our existing back row options and would be a hard no for me.

It won't stop a brigade of Bok fans frothing at the mouth over our alleged poaching though.

 

[Scotty]

Yeah. Just a re-hash of another, very similar article. It's still a no thanks from me.

I think it's 90% speculation and pretty pointless considering most don't qualify for a good while yet. However …

Liebenberg could have some factual basis. Borthwick knows him well, he qualifies soon and is better than Roots IMO. He is also the kind of 6 I think Borthwick wants so I wouldn't be totally surprised.

BJVR (when qualified) potentially solves a problem. My preference would be that Atkinson, Kelly, Hartley or another young 12 does that before he becomes eligible.

As a Quins fan, I love watching Green, but I don't believe he's astute enough to be a test fullback. He's great in a side that is willing to run from anywhere, but I think he'd be exposed in a more tactically demanding role.

Vermeulen is no better than any of our existing back row options and would be a hard no for me.

It won't stop a brigade of Bok fans frothing at the mouth over our alleged poaching though.

Realistically the only one for me would be BJVR, we have issues at 12 and would be a stop gap as well as being class, doesn't mean I like it(or want it), At all. But rules are rules and we can.

Vermeulen(I'm biased), he is a powerful presence and makes an impact when on the pitch for us. And liebenberg is a very good player. But back row we have no need to look outside what we have atm.
Underhill/CCS/Earl/Dombrandt/Curry...why go for those 2 above.

Green is exactly as you said. Furbank has passed his test as an international FB for me so no point.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The England 12 debacle continues. With Slade out Lawrence needs to go to 13 and we just need to pick all the 12s in the squad and have a look at them.

If BJVR is the better than Dingwall, Atkinson and Hartley then he should play. Ireland and Scotland both have import 12s so why don't we just play the game too? I hate it but then I hate Aki and Tuipuluto pretending to be Irish and Scottish anyhow.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ireland and Scotland both have import 12s so why don't we just play the game too?

I'd rather we put out a fat retired prop than stoop to the levels Scotland have lowered themselves to in recent years

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd rather we put out a fat retired prop than stoop to the levels Scotland have lowered themselves to in recent years

Haven't we asked enough of Dan Cole already?

 

[BPM]

The England 12 debacle continues. With Slade out Lawrence needs to go to 13 and we just need to pick all the 12s in the squad and have a look at them.

If BJVR is the better than Dingwall, Atkinson and Hartley then he should play. Ireland and Scotland both have import 12s so why don't we just play the game too? I hate it but then I hate Aki and Tuipuluto pretending to be Irish and Scottish anyhow.

A 'debacle' suggests we have the players but don't use them. That isn't the case. The issue has been that we haven't produced test calibre 12s for a long, long time. I don't understand why we don't seem to have recognised that and made it a focus at age grade level?

I disagree about Lawrence going to 13 for England. That might sound weird as he is definitely a 13 and should be better in his natural role. However, in England's defensive system, the 13 is he lynchpin and I'm not convinced he's cut out for that role. I'd prefer to leave him at 12 and have Dingwall take Slade's role for the AIs. Unless Will Joseph is back to fitness and form with Quins - I think he is the long term answer/successor to Slade.

 

[Which Tyler]

we haven't produced test calibre 12s for a long, long time

Again, I'm going to push back on this.
We have produced test calibre 12s, they just saw their way blocked by Captain Iceman (or didn't want to work with Coach Eddie), and chose to represent Wales or Scotland instead.

I disagree about Lawrence going to 13 for England. That might sound weird as he is definitely a 13 and should be better in his natural role. However, in England's defensive system, the 13 is he lynchpin and I'm not convinced he's cut out for that role.

Now that I can see, but I still want to see it tried (and more to the point, trained), as I don't see why he can't learn the role - which may well be my ignorance of never having defended that far out.