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England 2023/24

Depth is the issue has been for a while
Borthwick needs to start playing other players in positions now


Like we know Martin and Earl are starters so work on building players behind them
Get Tuima and Willis involved etc
Definitely against weaker teams. We didn't need a full strength side against Japan. Italy and Wales in the 6Ns too.
 
Definitely against weaker teams. We didn't need a full strength side against Japan. Italy and Wales in the 6Ns too.
AI neds to have some 'reserves' in the team, just to ramp up the competition for places.
Feel this is still an area we need to work on is the depth of squad. ATM too many players are being relied on or have automatic places.
Picking 2 teams
15 Furbank Carpenter
14 IFW. Roebuck
13 Slade. ???
12 Lawrence. Hartley
11 Freeman. Sleightholme
10 Smith F. Smith M
9 Mitchell. Randall
1 Marler. Baxter
2 Dan. ????
3 Cole. ???
4 Itoje. Chessum
5 Martin. Tuima
6 CCS. Hill
7 Underhill. Willis
8. Earl. Willis
 
If Kelly left for Ireland I would really like for Tigers to bite the bullet and play Steward at 12, although Woodward has a massive future imo
 
AI neds to have some 'reserves' in the team, just to ramp up the competition for places.
Feel this is still an area we need to work on is the depth of squad. ATM too many players are being relied on or have automatic places.
Picking 2 teams
15 Furbank Carpenter
14 IFW. Roebuck
13 Slade. ???
12 Lawrence. Hartley
11 Freeman. Sleightholme
10 Smith F. Smith M
9 Mitchell. Randall
1 Marler. Baxter
2 Dan. ????
3 Cole. ???
4 Itoje. Chessum
5 Martin. Tuima
6 CCS. Hill
7 Underhill. Willis
8. Earl. Willis
England finally get some consistency and now you want that changed?

We need to stick with the core of players and add in as we need. We just need some better quality bench players but they don't exist in some areas right now.
 
England finally get some consistency and now you want that changed?

We need to stick with the core of players and add in as we need. We just need some better quality bench players but they don't exist in some areas right now.

Dont' think anyone is calling for mass changes but couldn't Willis, Roebuck, Carpenter and Heyes have started v Japan?
Did Earl, Freeman, Furbank and Cole need to play that game?

Carpenter and Roebuck impress that game then does Borthwick have the confidence to try Freeman at 15 today?
 
I think again the issue of overplaying players is being completely ignored at the highest levels. For years English players have put in vastly more minutes than any other national players, often also doing long stints per game. I don't see how that can't take a toll on them and I think it's no coincidence how the most overplayed players also looked the most gassed and gave away the most penalties.

Every other nation except us seems to recognise the value in resting players.
 
I think again the issue of overplaying players is being completely ignored at the highest levels. For years English players have put in vastly more minutes than any other national players, often also doing long stints per game. I don't see how that can't take a toll on them and I think it's no coincidence how the most overplayed players also looked the most gassed and gave away the most penalties.

Every other nation except us seems to recognise the value in resting players.
Is that still the case with the top 14? Wondered if there is any good data out there as they play a much longer season but they do rest their players for away games.
 
I don't think there are any great sides at the moment, but over the last few months we've been in one point games with the Boks, Ire and ABs and a 2 pointer with Fra, only one of which was at HQ.

Add in the start of a more fluid style and from where we were this has to be a step forward (and since when did I start doing glass half full….?).

Fair play to SB, although much work still to be done and I still have some doubts. He's got a good crop of players coming through, but at least has brought some consistency and dignity back to the job. Acid test will be getting results in the AIs.
 
Is that still the case with the top 14? Wondered if there is any good data out there as they play a much longer season but they do rest their players for away games.
The top 14 pretty much stick to playing their main squad for home games.
Hard pushed to find many French internationals who play more than 14 top 14 games
 
3 Cole. ???
It won't effect England soon but I heard that Saints were experimenting with their highly rated LH Haffar at Tight head...
Any saints fan confirm that. He looks a good prospect at LH so be interested to hear if that rumour is true.
 
I hope not, he's highly rated so why not keep him there?
Iyogun and Haffar sets them up at loosehead for a long time.
I agree, it was something a saints pal mentioned just wondered if anyone else had heard anything.
Maybe it's just something all teams look at..Dual props are prized these days like Trevor Davison...
 
Two losses isn't what I was hoping for, but given how rare wins in NZ are, two narrow defeats and creditable performances is probably a decent outcome.

Positive debuts for Baxter and Sleightholme and our defensive system showing signs of developing in to a real weapon are the main positives to take away, along with a couple of decent showings for Smith against good opposition. I feel a little mean saying so, but it's also a positive if Spencer has played his way out of the squad.

IMO, the starting XV picks itself for now. I would pick 14 of the side from the first test with Genge in for Marler. I know Will Stuart gets a lot of heat, but until a genuinely better option comes along, I think he is the best we have.

The back ups is where it gets a little more difficult …

Hooker

George is doing a good job as captain and remains our best hooker. However, I don't think Dan is ready to be his successor and is better used as an impact sub (a role which suits him well IMO). We need to find our next starting 2. Langdon is the obvious choice, but I also like Seb Blake. For, permitting, I'd like to see both in the squad for the AIs. I know Oghre went on tour, but honestly I don't see him as a being a genuine contender.

LCD is still conceivably young enough to be a short-medium term solution, but I think his injury record and patchy form suggests his time may have passed.

Prop

Loosehead is in a decent spot. Baxter looks like he will establish himself as Genge's deputy. I thought he had an excellent tour and should be extremely proud of how he made the step-up to test rugby. Perhaps it's also the cue for Marler to retire from test duty. With Rodd, Iyogun and Brantingham, we have a good stable of young looseheads coming through.

Tighthead remains an issue. As I mentioned above Stuart is no more than OK, but there just isn't anyone obviously challenging for his spot. Heyes and Davison are no better and AOF is too young and not helped by the apparent confusion over which side he's supposed to be playing. I have high hopes for Harper at Sale, but I think he would need a strong start to the season as first choice to be a proper contender. If Gloucester and Bath can give Fasogbon and Sela a similar ramp-up to he first team to Baxter, we could be in a much better spot later in the RWC cycle.

I'm pleased Cole got the caps record, but I feel like we need to move on now. Unless he's starting, I don't think he should have a place in the 23 and given that we need to build experience in the younger props, I'd be more inclined to bite the bullet.

Lock

Itoje and Martin pick themselves with Chessum as the back up. Coles (only as a lock) and Isiekwe are decent back ups. From a short term POV, that group doesn't really need tinkering with and even from a medium term perspective, the only real reason to look beyond them is if others like Tuima or Tizard are making a stronger case for inclusion.

Flanker

Underhill should be one of the first names on the team sheet. We almost always look better with him on the pitch. CCS is raw, but his impact as a carrier and destructive tackler make him a great asset and he has the athleticism to keep developing as a lineout forward. There's room for improvement in the back row unit, but these two should be retained as our first choice flankers IMO.

I know there are calls for Earl to play at 7 but as covered in the match thread, I just don't think that's the right move. Leave him at 8 where he's been mostly very good.

Tom Curry simple shouldn't have gone on tour. At his best, he'd absolutely be challenging for a starting spot (probably moving CCS to the bench) but he's understandably nowhere near that right now. Hopefully he'll be fit and firing come the AIs.

His brother heads up a list of good 7s, but realistically, I don't see any of these truly shaking up the pecking order any time soon. Pepper looks the best longer term bet. I'm not totally convinced by the hype around Pollock.

6 is a bit more open. Ted Hill finished the season strongly and playing in tandem with Underhill helps his case, but the fact the successive coaches haven't really fancied him at test level gives me cause for pause. He's still more than young enough to put any doubts to bed though. I really like the look of Carnduff and whether he gets in to the mix for 24/25 or later really just depends on game time at Tigers.

Number 8

Earl had a poor tour. His decision making and basics weren't at the level we've seen previously. However, he had set himself a high bar and I'd prefer to persevere with the back row we've seen over the past few games as I believe it's our best, most balanced trio right now.

You all know by now I'm a big fan of Dombrandt. I'd really like to see him paired with CCS and Underhill, just to see if my theory that he's been set up to fail in his England career so far actually holds water. I definitely see him as a better starter than replacement though so for me he's in the starting XV or not in the 23.

Mercer … same kind of goes for Dombrandt really. With the right pairing on the flanks, he could be an asset. I think he'd probably be a bit more impactful off the bench though and I wouldn't be averse to seeing him in the 20 shirt.

Barbeary will surely got a chance at some point and if he, Underhill and Hill are working well as a unit at Bath, I'd potentially transplant them all in for a game or two with Earl or CCS on the bench.

Tom Willis is very good and with Billy leaving Saracens he has the perfect chance to press his claim.

CCS could also be an option, but if he's doing well at 6 and playing there for Quins, I see more of an upside in keeping him at 6.

In summary, lots of options, but Earl remains the best bet IMO.
 
Scrum Half

Mitchell had a good tour and has now firmly established himself as first choice. Conversely, I hope Spencer's abject showing (combined with age) has put him out of contention.

I was very surprised JvP was left out and he is the obvious choice to come back in to the squad (probably as 2nd choice).

I thought Randall was good against Japan and I was disappointed he didn't get a run out yesterday. As a high tempo, sniping 9, I think he offers something a bit different and deserves to be in the mix with JvP.

Quirke is a funny one. A few years ago he looked like he was a potential answer to our scrum half conundrum, but injury and losing his place to Warr are major set backs. He has talent but he needs to stay fit and dislodge Warr to become a true contender IMO.

From a medium term POV, McParland looks like he has potential but too early to say.

Fly Half

Aside from his kicking in Dunedin, I thought Smith was mostly good, at times very good. I think we need to keep faith with him and give him a good run in the driving seat. Moving him to 15 in looser games is also a nice card to be able to play.

Fin Smith underwhelmed with the not insignificant caveat that he had the misfortune of being outside Spencer in the first test. He is a talent though and I think we need to continue investing in his development and giving him some starts next season.

Ford remains an excellent option to call upon. As a senior figure in the squad and as a mentor for the Smiths, he's a huge asset IMO as well as still being an extremely good option on the park.

Beyond that, it gets a little sketchy … Atkinson needs to re-establish himself at Gloucester and it remains to be seen whether Anscombe's arrival is going to help him or hinder him. I'm semi curious to see if Malins plays 10 for Bristol, but I'm not convinced he has the temperament to be a test fly half.

I'm definitely not an advocate of poaching, but if Fergus Burke goes well at Saracens, he could well spark an interesting race for his services. Preferably, Louie Johnson wins that battle and develops as a possible long term 10 option.

Centre

Ummm … the current pairing isn't quite right but it really is the best we have.

At 12 it's Atkinson, Ojomoh, Kelly, same old names bandied about but no-one really laying down a marker. Shame Hartley did his ACL as he looked the most likely. Hopefully he recovers well and makes good on his potential.

Dingwall deserves to be in the squad, but I only see him starting if others are unavailable which isn't the greatest endorsement.

Freeman could well be the best option at 13, particularly given we have a slew of good wingers.

Will Joseph should come back in to the mix now he's fit and if Northmore is going to play 12 for Quins post-Andre, he might well be an option. He's a very smart rugby player and underrated IMO - I think he has more of a point of difference than Dingwall, but that could be club bias.

Wing

The current pairing did very well on tour and there really is no real reason to change either at this stage, with the possible exception of moving a Freeman to 13. Sleightholme and Roebuck making really positive cameos was a big positive from the tour and both should get more opportunities in 24/25.

I still think Murley could come back in to the mix. His injury was really poorly timed to coincide with Sleightholme's stellar season. He'll certainly be there or thereabouts.

OHC is still on the periphery, but is now probably 6th choice. Ibitoye and a couple of other options are there if needed but given the age profile of our top 5 wingers, they're probably unlikely to get a look in.

At this point, I think we can forget about any comebacks from Anthony Watson.

Fullback

Furbank has established himself as an important player. Easily first choice now. Having 3 good 10s with Smith having the capability to slot in at 15 also means that a second playmaker should be our go-to option now. Maybe that opens the door for the likes of Malins and de Glanville but both very much in the 'back up' category.

I feel a bit sorry for Steward, but unless he can improve his playmaking skills and defence, he might find himself on the outside looking in.

Carpenter looks like a good option who I'd be tempted to give a run at some stage.

Hodge could also be very interesting, but he needs to learn to be a better team player to be a genuine option IMO.

I know Tyrone Green is soon to be eligible, but aside from the fact that I don't like poaching players, I just don't think his game is suited to test rugby. He's a brilliant broken field runner and dogged defender, but I think he's too tactically naive and lacks the kicking game to be successful.
 
For me a couple, I really don't like this idea of focusing too much on these 21 year olds and younger props just yet.
Personally I would be giving Obano and Davison game time in the AI's. Honestly I think Painter will see more development. Last season showed he had potential and I think Baxter will drive home more conditioning for him.

Locks personally I can see Borthwick putting Chessum back to 6 with CCS as bench player for impact. We could do with Tuima or even Tizard steeping up another level next season. Carnduff I reckon will get game time for Tigers (Our back row is slim) but he's too slight for Test rugby and will be for a couple of seasons IMO. I do think J.Willis will return for the RWC and I think he will go straight to starting tbh either at 6 or 7.

I agree the the backs generally outside of I would struggle to say Roebuck 20 mins v Japan and Slightholme's 16 mins in 2 games v NZ as big positives.
They looked like they deserved more game time, but I wouldn't say it was big for England.

Saints have alot of good backs and i'm interested to see where players end up. Hendy and Litchfield both look promising but both play in areas of strength in saints
 
I'm not focusing on the younger props. If anything I'm saying we need to leave the U20s to develop.

Quins have brought Baxter through slowly. I'd like to see the same for the other young props.

As I said in the other thread, I like Obano, but once Genge is back to fitness, he is a nailed on starter. Obano is competing to be the back up and I think Baxter has stolen a march on him with his performances on tour. No issue whatsoever with having him in the mix if he's playing better than his competitors.

Re. Sleightholme and Roebuck, 'big positives' might be stretching it, but neither looked overawed and their short cameos looked as though they could transfer their club form to test rugby. Plenty of players either don't or take a while to settle.
 

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