England 2021/22

[Becca]

Jones has has been "admonished" by the RFU who have issued a conciliatory inclusive statement.

A fair bit of flak had been flying including from John Olver, ex rugby master at Oundle, former England hooker and uncle of the Currys.

In a knee knocking development for Jones, Bill Sweeney has apparently spoken "personally" to him about it.

Good Lord, the Blessed Eddie has been put in his place at long last !
Absolutely ridiculous article and makes you wonder if he's going to use this as an excuse for when we fail miserably in the RWC.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Pretty damn funny that the thing that the RFU draw a line on is in reality the truth.

The RFU do rely too much on private schools and it is a detriment to the national team.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Not the worst point in the world.

Also worth noting that this may be an issue with our sporting env as a whole - we have this problem in basically any major sport we participate in. Football a prime example, it's not exactly dominated by private schools, but that mentality issue is still one that comes up all the time

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't think many would dispute that our armed forces have some of the best leadership in the world. Half of Sandhurst entrants are from private schools, reflecting the proportion who started the final test down under.

The problem is not the lack of raw leadership materials coming out of schools, whether private or otherwise. How that talent is developed by the academies and current national set up is the real issue. Over coaching, overly prescriptive coaching, group think and narrow horizons - he who only knows of the Premiership and all that - are all much greater problems.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Good article from Owen Slot in the Times on Jones / private schools.

Just amused that he hates the system so much that he sent his own daughter to the same private school that spawned George and Isiekwe.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Good article from Owen Slot in the Times on Jones / private schools.

Just amused that he hates the system so much that he sent his own daughter to the same private school that spawned George and Isiekwe.

Ha ha. That is funny. Not as funny as hypocrite Labour MPs who talk a good game re the disgusting concept of a 2 tier education system but either went there themselves or send their kids there. I could win the euro millions and I'd never send my kids to private school. ****, I refused to send them to CoE state schools coz I find the idea of religion in schools almost as abhorrent.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Did Eddie say he hated private schools?
Or are people starting to get defensive over what he said about their education?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

it is worth noting as well that it's not by choice that the rfu rely on private schools. If I compare the training coaching I got at a normal school compared to people I know that went to private schools it's worlds away.

I'm sure the rfu would love to get the same level of Interst/ player numbers out of the state school but in reality rugby is a hard game to sell/ coach compared to football and other sports.

Maybe if the rfu focussed funding and promotion on non private schools then they'd get more interest but that is a big assumption by me. I've no idea what their current funding/ promotion looks like.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Sorry for the double post but would also like to say that as a father of a 7 year old my son is prime for rfu/ England/ club marketing and comparatively rugby does a really poor job at marketing itself compared to other sports.

Even little things like where and what merch you can purchase from shops etc. player profile and social media etc

It feels like there is a bombardment from other sports but there is no mention of rugby apart from him watching me play and watch it.

The rfu or world rugby needs to do better.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The military one is a good point and I was thinking about the SAS specifically as they seem to have quite a few privileged posh boys in their ranks who are obviously, being in the SAS, pretty hardcore. But then the whole point of military training is that they break you down bit by bit, destroy a lot of your sense of individualism to build you back up and mould you into a person who can kill other human beings. So with that in mind I think it's an unfair comparison but not a totally invalid one

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

The military one is a good point and I was thinking about the SAS specifically as they seem to have quite a few privileged posh boys in their ranks who are obviously, being in the SAS, pretty hardcore. But then the whole point of military training is that they break you down bit by bit, destroy a lot of your sense of individualism to build you back up and mould you into a person who can kill other human beings. So with that in mind I think it's an unfair comparison but not a totally invalid one

That's not really the Sandhurst method as far as I understand it, but even if that breakdown of individualism was the case, that's still an indictment of the pro game and RFU systems.

It seems like an easy out from Jones and the RFU, when it isn't really based on anything at all beyond stereotypes that don't actually have any basis

 

[Welsh Exile]

That's not really the Sandhurst method as far as I understand it, but even if that breakdown of individualism was the case, that's still an indictment of the pro game and RFU systems.

It seems like an easy out from Jones and the RFU, when it isn't really based on anything at all beyond stereotypes that don't actually have any basis

I must admit I've not got my finger on the pulse re what their method at Sandhurst is perhaps you could inform me? They're training people to be able to kill other people though, no? That was my point. It's quite hard to convince humans to kill other humans so certainly in years gone by (and perhaps this has changed) the whole way they would get you to do that is by destroying the person you were and building you back up so you can basically follow orders and ******* kill people. This is a niche psychological type thing that I don't think really applies to much else but as I say maybe they've changed in recent years.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I must admit I've not got my finger on the pulse re what their method at Sandhurst is perhaps you could inform me? They're training people to be able to kill other people though, no? That was my point. It's quite hard to convince humans to kill other humans so certainly in years gone by (and perhaps this has changed) the whole way they would get you to do that is by destroying the person you were and building you back up so you can basically follow orders and ******* kill people. This is a niche psychological type thing that I don't think really applies to much else but as I say maybe they've changed in recent years.

Just moreso from many of the people I know that have gone to Sandhurst, it is still very much in fitting with the privately educated, more silver cutlery and port stereotype and then still be able to go on exercise wildly hungover in the morning than the break down crying in the mud version. I may be wrong, but that is essentially story I am told by anyone I know who has passed out

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

pretty big difference between being a leader on the battle field and on the pitch.

And very different types of leadership.

Leadership in a sport is to drive your men to push to another level when needed.
Leadership in the army is to hold your objective and not get your men killed.

A LT in the army doesn't mean he would make a good team captain

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

pretty big difference between being a leader on the battle field and on the pitch.

And very different types of leadership.

Leadership in a sport is to drive your men to push to another level when needed.
Leadership in the army is to hold your objective and not get your men killed.

A LT in the army doesn't mean he would make a good team captain

Very true.

Again, it's a weird argument literally not based on any evidence whatsoever. This is a problem in virtually every sport we participate in, suggesting that either it's a broad sporting culture issue, or an expectation issue

 

[Welsh Exile]

Just moreso from many of the people I know that have gone to Sandhurst, it is still very much in fitting with the privately educated, more silver cutlery and port stereotype and then still be able to go on exercise wildly hungover in the morning than the break down crying in the mud version. I may be wrong, but that is essentially story I am told by anyone I know who has passed out

How do they train them to become killers? Which as I say, is a very, very hard thing for humans to do.

And not only that, kill on command. That is a very hard thing to install in someone's psyche.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just moreso from many of the people I know that have gone to Sandhurst, it is still very much in fitting with the privately educated, more silver cutlery and port stereotype and then still be able to go on exercise wildly hungover in the morning than the break down crying in the mud version. I may be wrong, but that is essentially story I am told by anyone I know who has passed out

Guys i know who went to Sandhurst seemed to spend as much time at fancy dinners and off skiing as doing anything military

 

[Welsh Exile]

I literally don't know anyone in the armed forces except for a cousin who got kicked out of basic training. Lol.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

How do they train them to become killers? Which as I say, is a very, very hard thing for humans to do.

And not only that, kill on command. That is a very hard thing to install in someone's psyche.

Sandhurst is about command, not being a lethal killer yourself. Much more emphasis on staying calm and making good decisions to direct others than doing a Rambo. That said I don't remember much skiing or fancy dinners either. It's a percentage, but minor in the grand scheme of things.

Sounds like you're thinking of the US Marine Corps boot camp.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Very true.

Again, it's a weird argument literally not based on any evidence whatsoever. This is a problem in virtually every sport we participate in, suggesting that either it's a broad sporting culture issue, or an expectation issue

I don't want to get too hung up on the rugby / military analogy as they are different, but Jones original point was about fortitude and mental resilience. The military have that in spades and are being drawn from the same talent pool.

Part of the reason is that they take youngsters right out of their comfort zone, give them responsibility and make them do things they didn't think they were capable of.

In football kids are in academies before they leave primary school. In rugby many sacrifice Uni to be in academies so don't get that learning to fend for themselves experience. For the most part they don't do what Johnson or Richards did - and now Mercer - in going abroad to develop their horizons. Players only seem to being developed near their potential in the gym.

I agree totally on the lack of leadership part, just totally disagree on the reasons. Little to do with educational background and all to do with the pro game.