Dan Cole !!

[McTallshort]

Get Attwood stuck into Coles meaty buttocks and he will be dominant, fatigue or no fatigue. Seriously though second rows are underestimated in their impact at scrumtime, a huge lock like Attwood or AWJ makes such a difference in how props are perceived. If you watch Bath scrums this year with Attwood compared to without him there is such a difference.
I think Cole has a very good technique in scrummaging, he just might not have the power to really drive through other props without a big second row behind him.

This!

The whole tight 5 is critical at scrum time too many times individual props are blamed for poor scrummaging performances ( of with I am stuggling to think of when Cole had one). The 1st Lions test in SA when Vickery was driven all over the place was seen as totally his fault. Even though the angle of the beasts drives where illegal a player who had played in 2 WC finals, won HC's and Captained his country was all of a sudden a weak prop. Yes he was dropped for Jones for the 2nd test but so was AWJ for Shaw and that helped just as must to shore the scrum up.

 

[psychic duck]

Because it's in their own bloody interests. A big part of why the Ulster game slipped away from them is that while Ulster could bring on Tom Court at loosehead, Dan Cole was stuck on. After a couple of grapples, the fresh legs of Court allowed him to drive straight through Cole and game over. Arguably, failing to get in a second good tighthead has been the difference between a home quarter-final and getting a beating in Clermont. Great economising. And yeah, I know there's a cap but they could easily trade away some of their quality elsewhere in the squad to get a guy in. I suppose they did, in Schuster, and got the wrong guy - but even so, use him a little. Or Balmain. Leicester's scrum and allround game is strong enough to get away with that. That way, when they're playing those do or die games, they'll be able to rely on a fighting fit Cole to do some real damage.

I agree the system needs work but its still possible to be intelligent in the system we've got. Leicester haven't and aye, England haven't either. I'm curious to know what it is about Wilson that Rowntree doesn't rate.

Patchey - How close do you think Collier is to full interntional quality?

Agree with this. If you look at a lot of the big French teams, the front row is very much a squad effort and sides like Toulon or Toulouse have two sets of international quality props and many such as Clermont swap their props at 50 or 60. You need more than one set of props to be an elite force in Europe you can't base it around just 1 or 2, a minimum of 3 good quality scrummagers are needed in my opinion in modern day rugby.

I checked the stats by the way Peat. In the Heineken Cup this season, Stankovich and Balmain only played 26 in total between them, they obviously aren't trusted at that level. Dan Cole played 464 minutes from 480 averaging 77 minutes per match, the season before he averaged 60 when Castro was there and the seasons before the starts were split between them. This season Cole is also averaging 70 minutes per match in the Premiership and he's been playing nearly every game both for club and country. It's no wonder he tired and struggled against a fresh Tom Court. Clermont by comparison, gave starts to all of Zirakashvili, Kotze and Clement Ric in this seasons tournament and replaced the tighthead at 60 minutes in every single game.

This!

The whole tight 5 is critical at scrum time too many times individual props are blamed for poor scrummaging performances ( of with I am stuggling to think of when Cole had one). The 1st Lions test in SA when Vickery was driven all over the place was seen as totally his fault. Even though the angle of the beasts drives where illegal a player who had played in 2 WC finals, won HC's and Captained his country was all of a sudden a weak prop. Yes he was dropped for Jones for the 2nd test but so was AWJ for Shaw and that helped just as must to shore the scrum up.

In fairness, on this particular occasion the scrum was fixed in the second half as soon as Vickery was subbed off. Vickery was past his best by 2009 after some serious injuries, it was a bad selection error by McGeechan.

 

[Amiga500]

Agree with this. If you look at a lot of the big French teams, the front row is very much a squad effort and sides like Toulon or Toulouse have two sets of international quality props and many such as Clermont swap their props at 50 or 60. You need more than one set of props to be an elite force in Europe you can't base it around just 1 or 2, a minimum of 3 good quality scrummagers are needed in my opinion in modern day rugby.

Absolutely correct.

The french take to even further extremes in terms of prioritising the job of their locks, who will tend to be massive units for scrummaging and use the backrow more in the lineout.

 

[Maverick1987]

I find this thread pretty laughable to be honest I rate dan cole very highly ! He isn't the most destructive scrummager in the world but is very rarely turned over by anyone at club or international level . I think you will find all the penalties last year vs wales came through the LH side facing jones .

How ewis comes up with that we have the sixth best scrum in the world is beyond me .

France has a very slight edge on England in last years 6N and ewis likes to remind us we don't have any backs either so we have beat them 3 years in a row with an inferior scrum and a set of backs comparable to small girls ! Lol

Do yourself a favour and take your French tinted glasses off for a minute

I'm happy for England to drop all Leicester players from the EPS anyway so we can concentrate on the premiership . Fed up of being drained of 20ish players every bloody time

 

[psychic duck]

I find this thread pretty laughable to be honest I rate dan cole very highly ! He isn't the most destructive scrummager in the world but is very rarely turned over by anyone at club or international level . I think you will find all the penalties last year vs wales came through the LH side facing jones .

How ewis comes up with that we have the sixth best scrum in the world is beyond me .

France has a very slight edge on England in last years 6N and ewis likes to remind us we don't have any backs either so we have beat them 3 years in a row with an inferior scrum and a set of backs comparable to small girls ! Lol

Do yourself a favour and take your French tinted glasses off for a minute

I'm happy for England to drop all Leicester players from the EPS anyway so we can concentrate on the premiership . Fed up of being drained of 20ish players every bloody time

When considering yoe91's opinions on backplay, remember that he thinks Matt Banahan should be in contention for a starting spot in international rugby. He's a prime example of a Highlight Reel Harry who only notices players that do a) big hits or b) breaks. Although having said that he's probably just a bit dumb, I believe he's also on record as saying England's 2003 side played 10 man rugby and their backs weren't great.

 

[Big Ewis]

I find this thread pretty laughable to be honest I rate dan cole very highly ! He isn't the most destructive scrummager in the world but is very rarely turned over by anyone at club or international level . I think you will find all the penalties last year vs wales came through the LH side facing jones .

How ewis comes up with that we have the sixth best scrum in the world is beyond me .

France has a very slight edge on England in last years 6N and ewis likes to remind us we don't have any backs either so we have beat them 3 years in a row with an inferior scrum and a set of backs comparable to small girls ! Lol

Do yourself a favour and take your French tinted glasses off for a minute

just - what. tha. fock. :lol:
This one is for keepers, uber frustration.


Listen, just because I wish England were hit by a meteor exactly the size and shape of the island and wish a miserable slow death upon every living being there (including the sheep and dogs and all, like, everything) doesn't mean I have any sort of "hatred" or whatever utterly exaggerated term ppl use to stigmatize me.
I think it is you, in fact, who should remove your blinding mint worshipping English sausage glasses and rub on your t shirt and then dip them in a bowl of full fat cream, and then rub them on your t shirt and dip in a bowl and so on, many times in a row...and then probably go and take a shower.
I sincerely hope you feel offended enough by this, and I should let you know my eyebrows were aggressively frowned during the entire process of typing and my jaws hurt from all the teeth grinding !!
RAAAAAARRRRRRRRRR !!!!!!

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Should try Brain O'Driscoll on the loose, might be more effective.

 

[Maverick1987]

just - what. tha. fock. :lol:
This one is for keepers, uber frustration.


Listen, just because I wish England were hit by a meteor exactly the size and shape of the island and wish a miserable slow death upon every living being there (including the sheep and dogs and all, like, everything) doesn't mean I have any sort of "hatred" or whatever utterly exaggerated term ppl use to stigmatize me.
I think it is you, in fact, who should remove your blinding mint worshipping English sausage glasses and rub on your t shirt and then dip them in a bowl of full fat cream, and then rub them on your t shirt and dip in a bowl and so on, many times in a row...and then probably go and take a shower.
I sincerely hope you feel offended enough by this, and I should let you know my eyebrows were aggressively frowned during the entire process of typing and my jaws hurt from all the teeth grinding !!
RAAAAAARRRRRRRRRR !!!!!!

I didn't mention you hated England I just said you extremely biased towards the French in a few extra words

Look at the post above your by duck that sums you up about perfectly highlight reel Harry

 

[Maverick1987]

When considering yoe91's opinions on backplay, remember that he thinks Matt Banahan should be in contention for a starting spot in international rugby. He's a prime example of a Highlight Reel Harry who only notices players that do a) big hits or b) breaks. Although having said that he's probably just a bit dumb, I believe he's also on record as saying England's 2003 side played 10 man rugby and their backs weren't great.

He will be telling us the advertising board was the bast player on the pitch in the Leicester vs Quins game last Saturday next ...... Haha

 

[TRF_Cymro]

 

[j-dawg]

To be fair, Vickery schooled the SA scrum in the third test and I've never seen a tighthead get drummed with Shaw packing up the rear. It just doesn't happen. And for the record, I personally don't believe all this hype about Adam Jones. He's got some truly awful stats, something like 3 tackles made, 0 yards gained and a few rucks hit in the lions match. How a proffesional rugby player can go all the way to the lions squad and have a work rate so low is beyond me. To all those who say how dominant he is in the scrum or whatever I just don't buy that either.

 

[psychic duck]

To be fair, Vickery schooled the SA scrum in the third test and I've never seen a tighthead get drummed with Shaw packing up the rear. It just doesn't happen. And for the record, I personally don't believe all this hype about Adam Jones. He's got some truly awful stats, something like 3 tackles made, 0 yards gained and a few rucks hit in the lions match. How a proffesional rugby player can go all the way to the lions squad and have a work rate so low is beyond me. To all those who say how dominant he is in the scrum or whatever I just don't buy that either.

 

[Draggs]

To be fair, Vickery schooled the SA scrum in the third test and I've never seen a tighthead get drummed with Shaw packing up the rear. It just doesn't happen. And for the record, I personally don't believe all this hype about Adam Jones. He's got some truly awful stats, something like 3 tackles made, 0 yards gained and a few rucks hit in the lions match. How a proffesional rugby player can go all the way to the lions squad and have a work rate so low is beyond me. To all those who say how dominant he is in the scrum or whatever I just don't buy that either.

My time machine works! It's 2003 all over again.

 

[Peat]

To be fair, Vickery schooled the SA scrum in the third test and I've never seen a tighthead get drummed with Shaw packing up the rear. It just doesn't happen. And for the record, I personally don't believe all this hype about Adam Jones. He's got some truly awful stats, something like 3 tackles made, 0 yards gained and a few rucks hit in the lions match. How a proffesional rugby player can go all the way to the lions squad and have a work rate so low is beyond me. To all those who say how dominant he is in the scrum or whatever I just don't buy that either.

If you don't think Adam Jones has been a genuinely dominant force in the scrum since about 2009 then I would recommend you visit a medical professional of some kind as there is something wrong with either your eyes or your sanity.

I'd also like you to click on this link and re-examine your comments on his work rate http://dementedmole.com/2013/10/30/ruck-marks/

 

[TRF_Cymro]

To be fair, Vickery schooled the SA scrum in the third test and I've never seen a tighthead get drummed with Shaw packing up the rear. It just doesn't happen. And for the record, I personally don't believe all this hype about Adam Jones. He's got some truly awful stats, something like 3 tackles made, 0 yards gained and a few rucks hit in the lions match. How a proffesional rugby player can go all the way to the lions squad and have a work rate so low is beyond me. To all those who say how dominant he is in the scrum or whatever I just don't buy that either.

I promised myself I wouldn't do this ...

Do we need to talk about Vickery in the first test then ...

Absolute rubbish that Jones isn't a dominant force at scrum. He bullies people. Also stats are stats, you can take them as you want. I'm sure the individual monitors players wear in games will show and tell a different story.

 

[Big Ewis]

I didn't mention you hated England I just said you extremely biased towards the French in a few extra words

Look at the post above your by duck that sums you up about perfectly highlight reel Harry

psychic duck is a person with visible psychological imbalances, I've blocked him and don't read his posts anymore. But about that comment you've quoted from him: about England 2003, great squad, I don't think they were a 10-man team, obviously Robinson was one amazing 15 and a guy like Cohen was just superior on the wing. They were however, as all English sides, centered around the forwards. A prime example of that was their match in NZ in 2003, or their 6N match against France that same year or the one in the RWC also against France. Heavily reliant on their pack, and with Wilko's boot converting all the points. Add to that some very capable backs, a formidable, formidable team.

About Matt Banahan: neither you nor that poor fellow psychic duck have realized the Banahan thing is just a silly inside joke by now. I happened to have seen a couple of good performances from him in an English uniform last summer (from 2009 I think...), and checked out some club, career stats and thought given the lack of production from England from the wing it would be nice to have a 115kg winger with good mobility and monster tackles and fends. Sounds just about right, in theory, no ? Obviously I understood later some of his faults, and then that was that...

of course, someone like psychic duck who is profoundly unstable, I'm talking about a guy who every single day for a whole week went bananas and singled me out, bad repped me with bizarre criticism towards my posts looking for anything to pick on, calling me strange things...a bit unsettling for a Rugby Forum experience, I must say !! Pure stalking, fixation, eerie remarks with an acid tone...just like in the movies.

It's interesting he would say I'm a mainstream observer of the game when he himself will pick up on anything he can get, no matter how superficial and partial, and hammer it like there's no tomorrow. :s yikes !
I hope they're giving him his meds daily over there....

Apologies for the off-topic. And Maverick, I don't think you're mentally unstable so try to be a little bit more compromising. Your posts are way too excessive as replies to my posts. Easy on dat keyboard

 

[psychic duck]

My time machine works! It's 2003 all over again.

I think Paul Ackford must have stolen j-dawg's login.

psychic duck is a person with visible psychological imbalances, I've blocked him and don't read his posts anymore. But about that comment you've quoted from him: about England 2003, great squad, I don't think they were a 10-man team, obviously Robinson was one amazing 15 and a guy like Cohen was just superior on the wing. They were however, as all English sides, centered around the forwards. A prime example of that was their match in NZ in 2003, or their 6N match against France that same year or the one in the RWC also against France. Heavily reliant on their pack, and with Wilko's boot converting all the points. Add to that some very capable backs, a formidable, formidable team.

About Matt Banahan: neither you nor that poor fellow psychic duck have realized the Banahan thing is just a silly inside joke by now. I happened to have seen a couple of good performances from him in an English uniform last summer (from 2009 I think...), and checked out some club, career stats and thought given the lack of production from England from the wing it would be nice to have a 115kg winger with good mobility and monster tackles and fends. Sounds just about right, in theory, no ? Obviously I understood later some of his faults, and then that was that...

of course, someone like psychic duck who is profoundly unstable, I'm talking about a guy who every single day for a whole week went bananas and singled me out, bad repped me with bizarre criticism towards my posts looking for anything to pick on, calling me strange things...a bit unsettling for a Rugby Forum experience, I must say !! Pure stalking, fixation, eerie remarks with an acid tone...just like in the movies.

It's interesting he would say I'm a mainstream observer of the game when he himself will pick up on anything he can get, no matter how superficial and partial, and hammer it like there's no tomorrow. :s yikes !
I hope they're giving him his meds daily over there....

Apologies for the off-topic. And Maverick, I don't think you're mentally unstable so try to be a little bit more compromising. Your posts are way too excessive as replies to my posts. Easy on dat keyboard

15 lines there. Congratulations though, you managed until the 4th paragraph this time until the smilie onslaught began and your post descending into tone that makes you resemble a pubescent Justin Bieber fan.

Didn't take long for the usual complete thick headed logic to come through. Isolating games where it was ******* down with rain seems like a good way of judging a team's attacking ability doesn't it? You could just as easily isolate 48-19 vs France, 42-6 vs Ireland or 53-3 vs South Africa you daft bellend.

 

[Maverick1987]

To be fair, Vickery schooled the SA scrum in the third test and I've never seen a tighthead get drummed with Shaw packing up the rear. It just doesn't happen. And for the record, I personally don't believe all this hype about Adam Jones. He's got some truly awful stats, something like 3 tackles made, 0 yards gained and a few rucks hit in the lions match. How a proffesional rugby player can go all the way to the lions squad and have a work rate so low is beyond me. To all those who say how dominant he is in the scrum or whatever I just don't buy that either.

This is funny Adam jones work rate can be questionable but he's the best scrummager in the world . If I was welsh I'd much rather have jones doing not much extra work than scrummaging than have a really poor scrummager that is good in the loose

 

[j-dawg]

Yeah Vickery was monstered by the beast in the first test blah blah blah we know how the story goes. I get people are touchy about Adam Jones but I personally don't believe the hype. I believe to be an international athlete you should at least have some athletic qualities. You can have a your little attack on me questioning my sanity or whatever over my personal opinion but it is what it is. I agree that a good scrummager is needed over one that can't scrum but why should a well paid international athlete only be expected to do one or the other?

enter round 2 of Adam Jones Butthurt...

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Same argument for Vickery then ...