Dan Cole !!

[ratsapprentice]

How about you actually converse?

 

[Patchey]

I disagree - Stevens has terrible workrate and is a penalty machine. He can do well in a strong Sarries pack, but was dreadful for England before he retired from international rugby (which he did a couple of years back).

That was going to be my answer and you got there first. Yes its very worrying that Thomas is our probably third choice but Stevens is so, just, bad that even if he hadn't retired I'd say no. Slow around the park, regularly out scrummaged and generally uninspiring. Were he no at Sarries, with their monstrous pack, I think he'd look so bad he'd be playing LV Cup games.

 

[McTallshort]

How about you stop being such a defensive tart and treat every comment I make like some personal attack or failing that I promise not to quote you again in case it upsets you. Not bothered what you do.

 

[Peat]

To be honest, I don't blame Leicester at all. I blame the entire rugby setup.

Leicester will argue that they are paying Cole's salary - which will be a lot, perhaps more than anyone else in the squad - so why should it be their responsibility to rest Cole in their own time on top of the time they are already losing to the international period? You're effectively paying the full salary of someone who isn't going to be there for significant parts of the season.

Because it's in their own bloody interests. A big part of why the Ulster game slipped away from them is that while Ulster could bring on Tom Court at loosehead, Dan Cole was stuck on. After a couple of grapples, the fresh legs of Court allowed him to drive straight through Cole and game over. Arguably, failing to get in a second good tighthead has been the difference between a home quarter-final and getting a beating in Clermont. Great economising. And yeah, I know there's a cap but they could easily trade away some of their quality elsewhere in the squad to get a guy in. I suppose they did, in Schuster, and got the wrong guy - but even so, use him a little. Or Balmain. Leicester's scrum and allround game is strong enough to get away with that. That way, when they're playing those do or die games, they'll be able to rely on a fighting fit Cole to do some real damage.

I agree the system needs work but its still possible to be intelligent in the system we've got. Leicester haven't and aye, England haven't either. I'm curious to know what it is about Wilson that Rowntree doesn't rate.

Patchey - How close do you think Collier is to full interntional quality?

 

[ratsapprentice]

How about you stop being such a defensive tart and treat every comment I make like some personal attack or failing that I promise not to quote you again in case it upsets you. Not bothered what you do.

I wasn't being defensive... I asked you a question - your response was to suggest we ignore each other.

 

[Patchey]

Because it's in their own bloody interests. A big part of why the Ulster game slipped away from them is that while Ulster could bring on Tom Court at loosehead, Dan Cole was stuck on. After a couple of grapples, the fresh legs of Court allowed him to drive straight through Cole and game over. Arguably, failing to get in a second good tighthead has been the difference between a home quarter-final and getting a beating in Clermont. Great economising. And yeah, I know there's a cap but they could easily trade away some of their quality elsewhere in the squad to get a guy in. I suppose they did, in Schuster, and got the wrong guy - but even so, use him a little. Or Balmain. Leicester's scrum and allround game is strong enough to get away with that. That way, when they're playing those do or die games, they'll be able to rely on a fighting fit Cole to do some real damage.

I agree the system needs work but its still possible to be intelligent in the system we've got. Leicester haven't and aye, England haven't either. I'm curious to know what it is about Wilson that Rowntree doesn't rate.

Patchey - How close do you think Collier is to full interntional quality?

I'm a little underwhelmed by him at the moment. I think he has a lot of promise and has coped fairly well with stepping up and playing more first team rugby this year. That being said I also haven't seen anything that has made me think, 'Yes, thats excellent' from him. Quins lack of decent second rows for most of the season so far has also been an issue so I haven't lost all hope. I don't think he'll be international quality by 2015 but if his amount of game time keeps rising and he gets to play consistently with a solid pair of locks behind him then I have hope.

 

[Big Ewis]

oh shhit that scared me quite badly. I thought he went down injured, readin the ***le...that would have given England even more excuses for the bad tournament they're about to conduct.

I think Cole is a good scrummager, it's just he happens to play in a hemisphere with worthy foes. England got completely exposed in their scrum against France and Wales last tournament, but Domingos and Adam Jones' aren't exactly legion either. They gave reputed Italy a very hard time in the scrum - watch the first 3min to get a good idea:



Cole has also looked good against New Zealand, and I think with Corbisiero back England will have a balanced enough scrum with world class units at both ends. I don't think he's as destructive a scrummager as Mas or Adam Jones, but he's definitely world class. England are by no means weak in that sector, in fact they're clearly among the world's best.
I think right now we could say the Top 5/6 in no order are: South Africa, France, Wales, Argentina, Italy/England.

Then, I haven't observed him enough outside scrum time, I don't know much about his efficiency on defense, his work rate. Ball handling skills don't seem great...

 

[McTallshort]

Some Aussie did some analysis on the scrums in the last England Aus game and it turned out Cole is a very effective TH, its on you tube somewhere. I do agree though he looks knackered and England have failed to develop any other TH with the exception of Wilson. It will be critical to see how he is managed over the 6N because he is really all we currently have at the minute.

Also that last Ulster scrum was not just down to Cole. Trust me when I say the whole tigers pack was shattered after that very punishing defensive display by Ulster.

 

[LooseHeadProp87]

thats england v italy with the old scrum laws cole has struggled with the new laws

 

[McTallshort]

What new laws? Only the engagement has changed

 

[Big Ewis]

Some Aussie did some analysis on the scrums in the last England Aus game and it turned out Cole is a very effective TH, its on you tube somewhere. I do agree though he looks knackered and England have failed to develop any other TH with the exception of Wilson. It will be critical to see how he is managed over the 6N because he is really all we currently have at the minute.

Also that last Ulster scrum was not just down to Cole. Trust me when I say the whole tigers pack was shattered after that very punishing defensive display by Ulster.

Yep, saw that on YouTube back in Nov. But like I said, I think Cole's getting bad publicity based on a couple of performances against particularly potent scrums (France, Wales). England need Corbs back or for Vunipola or Marler to step up their scrum game, he can't do it all.

And how many nations truly have 3 or 4 world class TH's ? none. France is struggling to find any itself despite its reputation in the department...

 

[LooseHeadProp87]

well under the new engagement he is useless

 

[McTallshort]

Bit daft that, bit out of form yes, Useless? please

 

[Crapspray]

Is he? He seemed to alright against Aus and New Zealand in the autumn. I think his drop in form is clearly due to over-playing.

What I don't understand is that Lancaster intervened with Northampton and told them to (or some part of the EPS agreement said they should) rest Corbisiero for a game prior to his injury- why couldn't/isn't he (it) doing the same with Cole? He's allowed some influence under the agreement, so surely he'd want to step in and tell them to give Cole a bloody rest.

England need Corbs back or for Vunipola or Marler to step up their scrum game, he can't do it all.

I think you underrate Marler and Vunipola. While clearly not up there with Corbisiero, they've both been competent at international level for quite some time. Marler has put on about half a stone this summer and has been very good at 'Quins. Last year's Six Nations he dealt with Mike Ross and Euan Murray comfortably. It was only Mas and Jones that had him. The latter has certainly seen a drop in form and suffered under the new laws, so my major concern would be Mas (who I haven't seen much of). At which point Cole vs Domingo is more important.

 

[ratsapprentice]

All EPS players have restrictions applied to the amount of games they can play during the season.
Cole will have been rested in line with those.

AFAIK the restriction applies to games played rather than minutes played.
And the difference between Dan and pretty much every other player is that he is routinely played for 80 minutes.

Now that he is another year older and a few KGs heavier Marler is a competent scrummager, Mako isn't as consistent but has also improved.
Both seem to have benefited greatly from the law revisions.

 

[LooseHeadProp87]

I think cole will really struggle against domingo

 

[Crapspray]

Fair enough. I just remember it being mentioned in article about Corbisiero, so didn't know if it was a special intervention or par for the course.

 

[Big Ewis]

I really don't see France having as much of an advantage this year as last year unfortunately in the scrum...and Adam Jones still is one hell of a hell of a scrummager. Mas has struggled against one man last year, by the name of Beast.......well it's not really his name, but uhh...
so this will be very interesting. And Marler was meh in the 2013 6N, he does seem like he's put on some weight in deed these past few months. And I think Vunipola is alright at LH, I'm just saying Cole looked a lot better when Corbisiero was there. He's like another TH Corbisiero, and Cole was definitely more efficient in the scrum in his presence.

I know this thread is about Cole, but a quick interjection: I'd really like to see France vs Wales this year in the scrum. Hopefully Saint-André fkn starts Domingo this time.

 

[Galbraith]

Get Attwood stuck into Coles meaty buttocks and he will be dominant, fatigue or no fatigue. Seriously though second rows are underestimated in their impact at scrumtime, a huge lock like Attwood or AWJ makes such a difference in how props are perceived. If you watch Bath scrums this year with Attwood compared to without him there is such a difference.
I think Cole has a very good technique in scrummaging, he just might not have the power to really drive through other props without a big second row behind him.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You've got to remember, Ewis, that Marler was 22 during the last six nations.
Marler was never going to make any serious dents as a scrummager and he has improved dramatically.

Mas didn't start playing for France consistently until he was 25.

Also got to agree with the above, scrummaging dominance is equally attributable to the locks.