Dan Carter's back up for the EOY Tour

[Larksea]

ok this is getting a bit meh! Sorry cookie you are correct, I somehow forgot donald started at 12 in Hamilton in 2009. Worst and maybe the only mistake I've made like that in ~6 years of posting.

I dont think the sun shines out of donalds arse. I just think he gets a raw deal from the NZ public. But funnily enough he doesn't get the same treatment from many Rugby experts and comentators who tend to see him the way I do.

He does look aquard compared to many other 10's around. But if you have ever seen donald and carter standing next to each other you will see why, he's actually very tall. And faster than people give him credit for.

IMO Donald did his job in 2009, maybe didn't shine at times or do everything right but his defence was better than sound and his kicking for goal kept the AB's in some games and and also won games.

Donald has mostly become the target because of the french games and the Sprinkbok games.

In my view the NZ forward pack was totally dominated by the french, they were smashed around the park and were totally unprepared for the intensity the french forwards delivered, the ball that was delivered to 9 & 10 in those games was rubish. Reality is none of the AB's actually played well bar maybe Cory jane, though he did miss a couple of critical tackles as well. Mils was captian and later admited he was not up to the task. I think it's harsh pointing the finger at donald when the whole team should have put their hands up.

The springboks tests were lost comprehensively in the lineout, the boks scored so many points from the field position they gained from the complete failure of the All Black lineout there was almost no need to look anywhere else. Though me media saw it for to replay a dropped high ball from donald and poor roks running the ball out from inside the goal line over and over again and it helped turn the NZ public against them. At the end of the day Hansen Was coaching, Hore was throwing and Ross was calling and the result was a complete failure.

just a couple more points from me.

Players dont adjust instantly to international rugby (unless they are Dan Carter or Richie McCaw), look at the likes of Conrad Smith, Nonu, Kaino they and others all wofted in and out of international selection for a few years before they found their feet. The funny thing is I remember being on a message board a few years ago having this same argument with people about Kaino and now he's a must have all black and may go down as one of the best ever in his position. And I can already see I may have the same argument with people about Vito since a lot of people are calling for his head after that last game, but vito has huge potential. The same way cruden will get another chance even though he's had ~6 caps so far and his last showing wasn't a good one.

It should also be noted that donald was a pretty average NPC player when he started out, then he was a pretty average super14 when he took the next step. Only to eventually become one of the best there is at both levels.

I'm a big fan of slade, he's got a lot of skills and right now I think he's easily better than Cruden (right now anyway). Though he's kind of shy and needs to become more of a leader/Director and his kicking for goal is not international standard yet.

Cruden is an awesome leader on the field very smart and lots of tallent, lots of potential. But his size is a worry he will always be a target for oposition attacks, his defence is good for his size but there are still question marks in that area. His kicking is far from international standard, both his %age at goal and the lenght & strength of his positional kicking - even though it's improved a bit there is still a long way to go.

The 2010 rules will help donalds running & passing game much more than the 2009 rules.

Donald's always played very well off the bench for the AB's and can cover 12 off the bench where he has proved he can provide genuine impact and help swing games. And really he's the only one of this group who has the proven kicking skills to match Carter.

Considering that, i'd take Slade & Donald on tour to backup Carter.

The good thing is all of these guys should have a proper run at 10 in the Super15 to make world cup squad selection a bit easier. This year cruden shared his jersey and slade was a 15.

 

[nickdnz]

ok this is getting a bit meh! Sorry cookie you are correct, I somehow forgot donald started at 12 in Hamilton in 2009. Worst and maybe the only mistake I've made like that in ~6 years of posting.

I dont think the sun shines out of donalds arse. I just think he gets a raw deal from the NZ public. But funnily enough he doesn't get the same treatment from many Rugby experts and comentators who tend to see him the way I do.

He does look aquard compared to many other 10's around. But if you have ever seen donald and carter standing next to each other you will see why, he's actually very tall. And faster than people give him credit for.

IMO Donald did his job in 2009, maybe didn't shine at times or do everything right but his defence was better than sound and his kicking for goal kept the AB's in some games and and also won games.

Donald has mostly become the target because of the french games and the Sprinkbok games.

In my view the NZ forward pack was totally dominated by the french, they were smashed around the park and were totally unprepared for the intensity the french forwards delivered, the ball that was delivered to 9 & 10 in those games was rubish. Reality is none of the AB's actually played well bar maybe Cory jane, though he did miss a couple of critical tackles as well. Mils was captian and later admited he was not up to the task. I think it's harsh pointing the finger at donald when the whole team should have put their hands up.

The springboks tests were lost comprehensively in the lineout, the boks scored so many points from the field position they gained from the complete failure of the All Black lineout there was almost no need to look anywhere else. Though me media saw it for to replay a dropped high ball from donald and poor roks running the ball out from inside the goal line over and over again and it helped turn the NZ public against them. At the end of the day Hansen Was coaching, Hore was throwing and Ross was calling and the result was a complete failure.

just a couple more points from me.

Players dont adjust instantly to international rugby (unless they are Dan Carter or Richie McCaw), look at the likes of Conrad Smith, Nonu, Kaino they and others all wofted in and out of international selection for a few years before they found their feet. The funny thing is I remember being on a message board a few years ago having this same argument with people about Kaino and now he's a must have all black and may go down as one of the best ever in his position. And I can already see I may have the same argument with people about Vito since a lot of people are calling for his head after that last game, but vito has huge potential. The same way cruden will get another chance even though he's had ~6 caps so far and his last showing wasn't a good one.

It should also be noted that donald was a pretty average NPC player when he started out, then he was a pretty average super14 when he took the next step. Only to eventually become one of the best there is at both levels.

I'm a big fan of slade, he's got a lot of skills and right now I think he's easily better than Cruden (right now anyway). Though he's kind of shy and needs to become more of a leader/Director and his kicking for goal is not international standard yet.

Cruden is an awesome leader on the field very smart and lots of tallent, lots of potential. But his size is a worry he will always be a target for oposition attacks, his defence is good for his size but there are still question marks in that area. His kicking is far from international standard, both his %age at goal and the lenght & strength of his positional kicking - even though it's improved a bit there is still a long way to go.

The 2010 rules will help donalds running & passing game much more than the 2009 rules.

Donald's always played very well off the bench for the AB's and can cover 12 off the bench where he has proved he can provide genuine impact and help swing games. And really he's the only one of this group who has the proven kicking skills to match Carter.

Considering that, i'd take Slade & Donald on tour to backup Carter.

The good thing is all of these guys should have a proper run at 10 in the Super15 to make world cup squad selection a bit easier. This year cruden shared his jersey and slade was a 15.

All of that is rubbish.

1. Mils has never stated he did not think he was not up to the task of captaining the All Blacks.
2. No one yet beleives Kaino is one of the best blind sides in his position. He falls well behind Collins, Jones and even Reuben Thorn as recent blind sides, not to mention over seas players. Most people would take either Elsome or Smith over Kaino. Kaino has improved, but that is a vast exageration to say he is one of the best blind sides.
3. Slade's goal kicking has been quality recently, especially considering he's now taking the kicking duties.
4. Donald's goal kicking has been average at best. And who can forget his magic 7 misses in a row? His chip kicks very rarely work, and his place kicking have seemed rushed against quality opposition.

What are you on about?

 

[ranger]

ok this is getting a bit meh! Sorry cookie you are correct, I somehow forgot donald started at 12 in Hamilton in 2009. Worst and maybe the only mistake I've made like that in ~6 years of posting.

I dont think the sun shines out of donalds arse. I just think he gets a raw deal from the NZ public. But funnily enough he doesn't get the same treatment from many Rugby experts and comentators who tend to see him the way I do.

He does look aquard compared to many other 10's around. But if you have ever seen donald and carter standing next to each other you will see why, he's actually very tall. And faster than people give him credit for.

IMO Donald did his job in 2009, maybe didn't shine at times or do everything right but his defence was better than sound and his kicking for goal kept the AB's in some games and and also won games.

Donald has mostly become the target because of the french games and the Sprinkbok games.

In my view the NZ forward pack was totally dominated by the french, they were smashed around the park and were totally unprepared for the intensity the french forwards delivered, the ball that was delivered to 9 & 10 in those games was rubish. Reality is none of the AB's actually played well bar maybe Cory jane, though he did miss a couple of critical tackles as well. Mils was captian and later admited he was not up to the task. I think it's harsh pointing the finger at donald when the whole team should have put their hands up.

The springboks tests were lost comprehensively in the lineout, the boks scored so many points from the field position they gained from the complete failure of the All Black lineout there was almost no need to look anywhere else. Though me media saw it for to replay a dropped high ball from donald and poor roks running the ball out from inside the goal line over and over again and it helped turn the NZ public against them. At the end of the day Hansen Was coaching, Hore was throwing and Ross was calling and the result was a complete failure.

just a couple more points from me.

Players dont adjust instantly to international rugby (unless they are Dan Carter or Richie McCaw), look at the likes of Conrad Smith, Nonu, Kaino they and others all wofted in and out of international selection for a few years before they found their feet. The funny thing is I remember being on a message board a few years ago having this same argument with people about Kaino and now he's a must have all black and may go down as one of the best ever in his position. And I can already see I may have the same argument with people about Vito since a lot of people are calling for his head after that last game, but vito has huge potential. The same way cruden will get another chance even though he's had ~6 caps so far and his last showing wasn't a good one.

It should also be noted that donald was a pretty average NPC player when he started out, then he was a pretty average super14 when he took the next step. Only to eventually become one of the best there is at both levels.

I'm a big fan of slade, he's got a lot of skills and right now I think he's easily better than Cruden (right now anyway). Though he's kind of shy and needs to become more of a leader/Director and his kicking for goal is not international standard yet.

Cruden is an awesome leader on the field very smart and lots of tallent, lots of potential. But his size is a worry he will always be a target for oposition attacks, his defence is good for his size but there are still question marks in that area. His kicking is far from international standard, both his %age at goal and the lenght & strength of his positional kicking - even though it's improved a bit there is still a long way to go.

The 2010 rules will help donalds running & passing game much more than the 2009 rules.

Donald's always played very well off the bench for the AB's and can cover 12 off the bench where he has proved he can provide genuine impact and help swing games. And really he's the only one of this group who has the proven kicking skills to match Carter.

Considering that, i'd take Slade & Donald on tour to backup Carter.

The good thing is all of these guys should have a proper run at 10 in the Super15 to make world cup squad selection a bit easier. This year cruden shared his jersey and slade was a 15.

-Rugby commentators are positive about every player regardless..
-I dont really care why hes awkward, the fact remains that he is, and thats not a good thing. Its the same argument as saying that yes Matt Dunning is slow, but thats because hes quite fat. Just because he is tall doesn't mean he has an excuse for his lack of finesse either. Stephen Larkham was lanky as hell and he was one of the most graceful players of the modern era.
-Donald isn't a target because of the results of a couple games. Its because he simply doesn't have the right skillset to play first five for the All Blacks. You can isolate areas where the All Blacks lost some matches, but that doesn't change the failings of Donalds own personal game.
-Nonu, Smith, Kaino etc all had the raw skills to make it as world class internationals in there positions. Donald doesn't so its sort of a different situation.
-Donald didn't take to NPC at first, but he had the potential to be a good player in that league, even in his bad games you could tell that once he adjusted he could be a good player. His natural skill set was suited to NPC rugby. The same with Super 14, with the right game plan and a playmaker at 12 he looked like he could kick on to be a great player in the league. He simply doesn't look like he has the right game to make it as an All Black though, no matter how much time he is given.
-There are no question marks over Crudens defense, the guy doesn't miss tackles, its a real strong point of his game. You are just guessing that there are because of his size, his actual performances don't back up that guess. Conrad Smith looks like he could be blown over by a stiff breeze but hes one of the top defenders in the world. As i have said before, the fact that attacks will be directed at him isn't a weakness at all, its a major strength. If you have the opposition continuously directing their attack at one of your very best defenders, then thats awesome. They are focusing their attack in an area they are unlikely to get through, thats a tactical strength he brings to the team in my opinion.
-The 2010 rules wont help Donalds running and passing at all. He doesn't think fast enough and this year that is even more important.
-Donald can't match Carters kicking. Hes the best kicker left but 7 misses anyone?

 

[Larksea]

All of that is rubbish.

1. Mils has never stated he did not think he was not up to the task of captaining the All Blacks.
2. No one yet beleives Kaino is one of the best blind sides in his position. He falls well behind Collins, Jones and even Reuben Thorn as recent blind sides, not to mention over seas players. Most people would take either Elsome or Smith over Kaino. Kaino has improved, but that is a vast exageration to say he is one of the best blind sides.
3. Slade's goal kicking has been quality recently, especially considering he's now taking the kicking duties.
4. Donald's goal kicking has been average at best. And who can forget his magic 7 misses in a row? His chip kicks very rarely work, and his place kicking have seemed rushed against quality opposition.

What are you on about?

1, I've seen in an interview with Mils that the pressure of being captian took it's toll on him and he said it was a contributing factor to the dip in form he had prior to the end of year tour last year. I guess because you didn't see it it must never have happened?
2, Learn to read, I never said he was. I said "MAY go down as one of the best ever in his position." meaning he has the potential to and i believe it. If kaino carries on this form he will go down as one of the great blindsides. He's been in brilliant form for the All Blacks over the last few seasons and has a prime chance to be a world cup winning All Black 6 which will put him in company with 1. Way to completely miss the point too. The point was that the begining to Kaino's carrier as well as many other very good current all blacks was very patchy - yet in time they became world class.
3, So a few good games kicking goals in ITM cup has made slade an international quality kicker in your eyes? If you say so. As I said he's improving but he's gone through recent competitions with very poor kicking %ages, like 50% he, cruden and brett are all yet to prove they are quality goal kickers over more than a few games. The only people I'd be happy kicking goals for the AB's right now would be in this order: Carter, Donald, Weepu, Delany, Dagg
4, Donalds kicking is much better than average, even though he had a slow start for the AB's missing some early attempts he would normally get he managed to get his overall %age to about 74-75% for tests. Yes he had a shocker for the chiefs this year over a couple of weeks. All players do at some point, Morne Steyn had one game where he only converted like 1 of about 7 or more trys the bulls scored in a game. Even carter had a shocker as well.

What are you on about?

 

[Larksea]

Well Ranger I guess the main part I disagree with you on is that I think donald does have the potnetial, mainly because he has had tests where he has been very good.

vs. AUS in auckland last year he was the difference between winning and losing that game.
he's come off the bench and been the major factor in turning a few games around for the AB's, prime example would be Brisbane in 2008.

So saying he doesn't have the potential is simply not correct in my book. because he's shown he can do it. more often that not in his 19 caps he has done a good job.

 

[ranger]

Well Ranger I guess the main part I disagree with you on is that I think donald does have the potnetial, mainly because he has had tests where he has been very good.

vs. AUS in auckland last year he was the difference between winning and losing that game.
he's come off the bench and been the major factor in turning a few games around for the AB's, prime example would be Brisbane in 2008.

So saying he doesn't have the potential is simply not correct in my book. because he's shown he can do it. more often that not in his 19 caps he has done a good job.

Im more looking at the specific mechanics of his game. They way he does things, the decisions he makes, his instincts and his raw skills aren't suited to All Blacks rugby in my opinion. Im not saying that he doesn't have potential as a rugby player, i just don't think that he will ever be a great option for the All Blacks.

 

[Sam Owen]

Like I said before I got nothing really against Donald, he's ok but 7 missed missed kicks at goal in a row???... is that the All Black's worst record for attempt at goals?...cookie any facts for us?:mellow:

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I don't know if it was 7 misses in a row, but regardless, look at his kicking percentage up to that point in this year's Super 14 - then start complaining.

He had an off game, so does everyone.

 

[BjR]

Yeah- Donald really reminds me of Lauaki - Very good for three weeks in a row scores the only AB's try against SA, has one bad one against AUS and suddenly hes public enemy number one.??

 

[Larksea]

hmm yeah well.

I'd just thought I'd check in as I sit here with the TV going watching what is a master class performance from Donald. 6 from 6 at goal and two trys of his own clocking up some 20 odd points. Uber bombs, uber touch finders, uber passing and even one of those chip kicks that you all hate seemed to be worth 7 points.

Weather you guys like it or not he is the form 10 in the ITM cup, showing the way for all other comers.

yeah he kinda looked aquard though...

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Yeah, only one botched kick off, otherwise one of the best performances from a 10 you'd see.

 

[donmcdazzle]

He is so awkward with everything he does, always seems so rushed. His mechanics are flawed, especially punting he just throws it up in the air then hoofs it.

He will never be a reliable test 1st 5 so you guys saying how good he is, sorry but he won't get another look in I don't think.

 

[Sam Owen]

hmm yeah well.

I'd just thought I'd check in as I sit here with the TV going watching what is a master class performance from Donald. 6 from 6 at goal and two trys of his own clocking up some 20 odd points. Uber bombs, uber touch finders, uber passing and even one of those chip kicks that you all hate seemed to be worth 7 points.

Weather you guys like it or not he is the form 10 in the ITM cup, showing the way for all other comers.

I never said I hate Donald mate. I just hate his chips for himself that go straight to the opposition.
He played well against Otago and he's definately back. Mind you Stephen is a good player and in the ITM and Super 14 he has proven himself before, so Im not surprised that hes doing well, it'll be a surprise if he was playing poor. I dont usually see the best of Donald in black, he doesnt do what we know he can and seen in Super and ITM rugby but maybe he just needs more experience in the test arena.

IMHO 'uber' is a big word to describe Stephens skills with, especially while Dan is around.

I don't know if it was 7 misses in a row, but regardless, look at his kicking percentage up to that point in this year's Super 14 - then start complaining.

He had an off game, so does everyone.

Im not complaining. I just want to know if its true and if thats 7 misses in one game, thats all.

 

[ranger]

hmm yeah well.

I'd just thought I'd check in as I sit here with the TV going watching what is a master class performance from Donald. 6 from 6 at goal and two trys of his own clocking up some 20 odd points. Uber bombs, uber touch finders, uber passing and even one of those chip kicks that you all hate seemed to be worth 7 points.

Weather you guys like it or not he is the form 10 in the ITM cup, showing the way for all other comers.

Showing the way for all comers? Crudens playing in the worst team in the comp and managed to inspire a victory almost single handedly last week. Slade has been playing well and Delaney is really stroking it aswell.
Donald is playing great rugby, but saying that he is the undisputed form number 10 is just one eyed. They are all playing great rugby, weather Donald is playing better is definitely debatable.

 

[nickdnz]

Donald is playing great rugby, but saying that he is the undisputed form number 10 is just one eyed. They are all playing great rugby, weather Donald is playing better is definitely debatable.

Wait, are you trying to tell me his views are some how biased, just because he gets hard when talking about Chiefs players?

Next you're going to tell me "David Holwell's Ears" also has a bias towards 1st 5/8ths.

As for the Stephen Donald kicking nightmare, I'm of course talking about his shocker against the Cheetahs, 25-25 draw. There were 8 misses at goal, in which Donald took 7 of them. Was one of the worse performances I've ever seen. I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's just certainly not world class. He doesn't respond to pressure well, which partly explains why the Chiefs consistantly are either awsome, or terrible.

 

[smartcooky]

hmm yeah well.

I'd just thought I'd check in as I sit here with the TV going watching what is a master class performance from Donald. 6 from 6 at goal and two trys of his own clocking up some 20 odd points. Uber bombs, uber touch finders, uber passing and even one of those chip kicks that you all hate seemed to be worth 7 points.

Weather you guys like it or not he is the form 10 in the ITM cup, showing the way for all other comers.

yeah he kinda looked aquard though...

That would be against..... oh... Otago

Right. No pressure. Come on mate, my grandmother could turn in a master class against them!!

Otago are bloody awful at the moment. Waikato completely dominated them in all phases up front, and gave Donald an armchair ride.

 

[Sam Owen]

I'm of course talking about his shocker against the Cheetahs, 25-25 draw. There were 8 misses at goal, in which Donald took 7 of them.

Oh ok I must've missed that game. Cheers for the info.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

That would be against..... oh... Otago

Right. No pressure. Come on mate, my grandmother could turn in a master class against them!!

Otago are bloody awful at the moment. Waikato completely dominated them in all phases up front, and gave Donald an armchair ride.

Yeah, and Otago weren't able to put enough pressure on Donald's kicks at goal - they needed to yell at him to make him miss the kick, stupid Otago...

 

[Shaggy]

Seems Colin Slade had a good game too against Southland, with a Try and not missing a kick ... they all seem to be playing well, so it will make the choice of who they take more difficult

 

[Larksea]

slade is playing well no doubt about it,

and I think he's a sure thing for the EOY tour. I think almost for sure another 10 option will tour, it will be tactical looking towards ther WC and finding the best backup for carter. also carter is coming back from injury and though aiming to be ready for the opener against AUS he wont be a sure thing.

Donalds performance went a fair way beyond just "playing well" I'd challenge any of you to come up with a more dominant performance by a 10 in this years ITM cup. What impressed me was it wasn't any one thing he did well. Pretty much everything he did was brilliant. Positional kicking was great, kicking for goal was very good and I think of the kicks there was one from each side of the park so they weren't all easy. Though one of his kickoffs didn't go 10 the rest were very good, he got a lot of height on them allowing his players to contest. His passing was top class, leading to a couple of trys. Mills scored a try of a chip of his. He scored two trys of his own, one powering through some defenders close to the line and the other off a great little kick. Good decision making and Good defence. And that huge bomb he sent up, the height on it was awesome and it came down just outside the 22, spot on.

otago aren't a bad team either, great thing about this itm cup and more so this time in the ITM cup when all the players are trying to play out of their skin for super contracts. Only need to look to last weekend for proof when Otago gave canterbury a scare.

And that may well come down to Cruden vs. Donald which IMO is a battle of the Form player against the project player.