Dan Carter's back up for the EOY Tour

[Shaggy]

Besides all that, he has played 19 tests over two seasons. Ted & Co. already know what he can do. Surely, they want to find out what others can do, rather than "discovering" them next year. For the same reasons that Donald should not go, SBW must go.

Keep in mind, that the All Blacks will only play FOUR Tri-Nations matches next year (not six), and there are NO June tour matches. This means there are eight tests left before RWC2011, and half of them are going to be on this tour. If they don't pick Slade and SBW for this EOYT, they are not goiung to have any real opportunities to pick them next year.

Exactly! ... try the new guys now, give the best backup players some game time in the Tri-Nations next year (whoever they are at THAT time)

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Why should he go because of his experience? It doesn't matter if they lose these tests, surely testing out options on the tour is more important than having an experienced player there to ensure victory? Even if they were really wanting to win next month, the All Blacks have been taking untested rookies with them on this tour every year, and have won all but one game since 2002, only dropping one match against the barbarians last year.
Donald is the best goal kicker out of this group (although hes no stranger to having a shocker), hes a great defender, he can run hard and has a long punt when given space.
However, Cruden is just as good on defense, they are both great defensively. Donald is probably the worst attacker out of the whole bunch too, his instincts aren't as sharp as the other options. He doesn't clue on to attacking opportunities as quickly as the others and he can look very labored in his play. Even when he does spot gaps, his pace off the mark isn't up there with the other 3. In situations where Cruden, Slade and Delaney scythe through holes untouched with their acceleration, Donald is often slower to those opportunity's but breaks through those closing gaps with his immense strength. He can get away with that at ITM and Super 14 level but you just can't do that at international level.
The worst part about Donalds game is that he just doesn't appear to have enough time when he does things, hes the kind of first five that looks like you could blitz on and he would flake out. He cant set up players as well as the others can either, his play making and decision taking on the fly and in broken play just isn't at the right level for the kind of game the allblacks play.
Hes a top player, but hes not really suited to All Blacks rugby.

Are you serious?

 

[ranger]

Are you serious?

Yes i'm serious. He's laboured in his play, he doesn't think as fast as an all black first five should and even though hes pretty fast when he gets going, his first 3 or so steps are very slow.

 

[BjR]

Uh well I guess that is true, but he has created and scored some amazing tries, and he's really impressed me with his speed, although, I agree his acceleration is rather average.

 

[smartcooky]

Yes i'm serious. He's laboured in his play, he doesn't think as fast as an all black first five should and even though hes pretty fast when he gets going, his first 3 or so steps are very slow.

I agree with this too. If anyone thinks ranger is wrong, think back to that Hong Kong Bledisloe in 2008 when Donald played at 10 and Carter at 12. That was a near disaster. Carter had little time to do anything because Donald was so slow. Donald's cock-up on defence led the first Aussie try, and again when he tried to run the ball inside our own 22, we coughed up our second. We were down 14-9 (2 tries to zip) at half time.

It was really only when Nonu came on to replace Donald very early in the second half (going to 2nd 5/8 with Carter moving to 1st 5/8) that the ship was righted, and we won the game keeping the Wallabies scoreless in the second half.

 

[nickdnz]

I agree with Ranger on Donald. As mentioned, we know what Stephen Donald is capable of, and so far it isn't looking like a world class 5/8th option. He's good in the NPC and even S14, but he doesn't seem to be up to international standards, where as, we still have little idea of how well Cruden or Slade could perform. We may have two world class fly halfs that would go untested going into the RWC, in place of an average, tested one.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I agree with Ranger on Donald. As mentioned, we know what Stephen Donald is capable of, and so far it isn't looking like a world class 5/8th option. He's good in the NPC and even S14, but he doesn't seem to be up to international standards, where as, we still have little idea of how well Cruden or Slade could perform. We may have two world class fly halfs that would go untested going into the RWC, in place of an average, tested one.

I don't believe either of Slade of Cruden will be up to that high a standard come the World Cup regardless.

 

[ranger]

I don't believe either of Slade of Cruden will be up to that high a standard come the World Cup regardless.

Stranger things have happened. Mehrtens was an untested young rookie a year out from the 1995 world cup and he was pretty good when the time came.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I don't believe either of Slade of Cruden will be up to that high a standard come the World Cup regardless.

Well at least the coaches will have some idea if they are or not. If it comes down to Donald as our 1st 5 in the world cup we're screwed anyway so might as well see if the young guys can do better (im sure both can).

donald is a good player, we all know that,, but not great. Let's see if these young guys can be great.

 

[Larksea]

I agree with this too. If anyone thinks ranger is wrong, think back to that Hong Kong Bledisloe in 2008 when Donald played at 10 and Carter at 12. That was a near disaster. Carter had little time to do anything because Donald was so slow. Donald's cock-up on defence led the first Aussie try, and again when he tried to run the ball inside our own 22, we coughed up our second. We were down 14-9 (2 tries to zip) at half time.

It was really only when Nonu came on to replace Donald very early in the second half (going to 2nd 5/8 with Carter moving to 1st 5/8) that the ship was righted, and we won the game keeping the Wallabies scoreless in the second half.

How can you seriously judge a player on one game, you pick that Hong Kong match out that is one of only a couple of average showings from donald in 19 caps. And dont forget he was selected in that game because he came off the bench and played a major role in winning the previous game in Brisbane. What I remember from that game was that Donald and Carter were both playing 10 and 12 which was very disorganised. Donald was defending at 10 and attacking from 12, neither he or carter really knew what was going on and it didn't look like carter liked it or was even interested in making it work. The problem was the gameplan itself more than anything else. Almost everyone on both teams had a bad game that day it was a total mess. That sort of tactic may work if it was tried over 4-5 games and the players were commited to it given more time. But in the end it was one game and for sure carter didn't like it one bit, I doubt donald did either.

What if you judged Donald by the game vs. AUS in Auckland last year. Where he played pretty much a perfect 80min and the AB's won of the back of his positional kicking and 6 shots at goal.

 

[smartcooky]

Larksea

I'm not "judging" Donald on the strength of that one match, I am just using it as an example of what ranger is talking about as regards him being slow off the mark. I could have picked the two home tests against France in 2009 or the three Tri-Nations matches against South Africa.

IMO, Donald often looks like he is being hurried into executing, and he really struggles against a rush defence.

 

[dan the man]

They've gotta stick with Cruden... it's crap to build someone up as much as they have with Cruden and then to give him one opportunity, i admit he didn't play a great game starting in the number 10 jersey but he needs to be given the chance to develop and grow into the role... and lets remember he's being compared to the first first-five on the planet! pretty big shoes to fill.

I do think he needs to settle down and just do the basics... those little grubber kicks become very predictable very quickly. Just like Stephen Donald's chip kicks did last season.

Slade is an awesome utility and has a great skill set, either player would be suitable but since they've already started trying to 'mould' Cruden they need to keep at it.

(Lets just pray that Dan Carter stays fit for 2011)

 

[Larksea]

just fyi Donald played in two of the tri nations games against South Aftica. Thought you were the smart cookie?

 

[Larksea]

dan the man you have hit on exactly why I think most people hate on donald. People are too used to seeing Dan Carter play 10, they see donald there and it's not the same so he sucks. Even though he's done a good job overall for the all blacks people tend to forget the bad performances Carter has made and people have for some reason only remembered the bad performances Donald has had.

It's a close thing though. IMO without a doubt if the AB's lineout had have been a bit better last year the AB's would have won two of the springbok tests and the tri nations. The lineout was a complete and utter disaster. And if we did win then people wouldn't feel the way they do about Donald even though the lineout has nothing to do with him. It should be Issac Ross and Andrew Hore should be getting the flack for last year not Donald or Rokocoko.

 

[Darwin]

just fyi Donald played in two of the tri nations games against South Aftica. Thought you were the smart cookie?

I think you will find that he did play three tri-nations matches against South Africa last year, hence smartcooky is correct. He started at 10 in the two games in South Africa, and started at 12 (outside Carter) in the match in Hamilton (http://www.rugbymuseum.co.nz/ABProfilee.asp?level1=All_Blacks&Level2=ABC&IDID=1075).

 

[Shaggy]

dan the man you have hit on exactly why I think most people hate on donald. People are too used to seeing Dan Carter play 10, they see donald there and it's not the same so he sucks. Even though he's done a good job overall for the all blacks people tend to forget the bad performances Carter has made and people have for some reason only remembered the bad performances Donald has had.

It's a close thing though. IMO without a doubt if the AB's lineout had have been a bit better last year the AB's would have won two of the springbok tests and the tri nations. The lineout was a complete and utter disaster. And if we did win then people wouldn't feel the way they do about Donald even though the lineout has nothing to do with him. It should be Issac Ross and Andrew Hore should be getting the flack for last year not Donald or Rokocoko.

I'm not sure that there's too many Donald "haters" out there Larksea ... sure, i've got my preferences as to who is the next best behind Carter, but I can't put my hand on my heart and swear that any one of them is better suited to the All Blacks style of play than the others ... i'm thinking that the ABs selectors aren't convinced either, which is why they will probably take both Cruden and Slade (to give them more game time), and not Donald (they know what he can do)

 

[ranger]

dan the man you have hit on exactly why I think most people hate on donald. People are too used to seeing Dan Carter play 10, they see donald there and it's not the same so he sucks. Even though he's done a good job overall for the all blacks people tend to forget the bad performances Carter has made and people have for some reason only remembered the bad performances Donald has had.

It's a close thing though. IMO without a doubt if the AB's lineout had have been a bit better last year the AB's would have won two of the springbok tests and the tri nations. The lineout was a complete and utter disaster. And if we did win then people wouldn't feel the way they do about Donald even though the lineout has nothing to do with him. It should be Issac Ross and Andrew Hore should be getting the flack for last year not Donald or Rokocoko.

Thats just speculation. I have told you why im not a huge fan of Donald, whether we win or not has nothing to do with Donald's personal failings. If we had miraculously won last years trinations i would still think that he is very slow in his decision making and execution and that hes not very quick off the mark. Those are failings of his own personal game The lineout has nothing to do with Donalds problems. Maybe Hore and Ross should be getting flack for the lineout, but Donald deserves the criticism he gets too because of the flaws in his own game.

 

[smartcooky]

just fyi Donald played in two of the tri nations games against South Aftica.

Actually, just for YOUR information, Donald played in all three Tri-Nations matches in 2009

Saturday, 25 July 2009... started at 1st 5/8 and was not subbed off
http://www.rugbymuseum.co.nz/teamsheet.asp?level1=Database&level2=ABC&MT_ID=2171

Saturday, 1 August 2009... started at 1st 5/8 then subbed off for McAlister in the 61st minute
http://www.rugbymuseum.co.nz/teamsheet.asp?level1=Database&level2=ABC&MT_ID=2172

Saturday, 12 September 2009... started at 2nd 5/8 then subbed off for Toeava in the 51st minute
http://www.rugbymuseum.co.nz/teamsheet.asp?level1=Database&level2=ABC&MT_ID=2174

Thought you were the smart cookie?

You thought right. One of the things that makes me smart is that I check before I post

 

[nickdnz]

dan the man you have hit on exactly why I think most people hate on donald. People are too used to seeing Dan Carter play 10, they see donald there and it's not the same so he sucks. Even though he's done a good job overall for the all blacks people tend to forget the bad performances Carter has made and people have for some reason only remembered the bad performances Donald has had.

It's a close thing though. IMO without a doubt if the AB's lineout had have been a bit better last year the AB's would have won two of the springbok tests and the tri nations. The lineout was a complete and utter disaster. And if we did win then people wouldn't feel the way they do about Donald even though the lineout has nothing to do with him. It should be Issac Ross and Andrew Hore should be getting the flack for last year not Donald or Rokocoko.

1). No, Stephen Donald performed poorly almost all year. He looked laboured and at times clumsy when playing for the All Blacks. I don't compare 1st 5/8ths to Daniel Carter, but they are still supposed to control a game. Donald couldn't and didn't. He lacked vision and could set up very few tries when playing against teams that put on pressure (although your defence of pretty much all players playing for the Cheifs, leaves little imagination to why you defend Donald).

2. Andrew Hore was arguably the form hooker in the world last year, turning over more ball than any other All Black. The lineouts weren't great, but I'd hardly say his inclusion in the AB's was a problem, infact I believe he won NZ Player of the Year. Isaac Ross also looked very good last year, and it was a bit of a shock that he has been disgarded as he has. During the June test series he looked like the most promising new comer.

Donald certainly did not look up to test standard, but I agree that the Rokocoko criticisms were a little bit harsh considering all the crap ball he we given, and the public pressure that was on him (not mich unlike Habana now).

 

[Sam Owen]

Donald is still doing his stink chips for himself (they suppose to be for himself but the other team nearly always gets it) however he scored a good try from his chip in the weekend, sort of from his chip anyway as the other team gathered it and somehow the ball boomeranged back to him.

I dont hate Donald I think hes fantastic for the Chiefs but he doesnt play like we now he can when he's with the All Blacks. He's not as strong as Dan and Morne in terms of dictatorship and I just hate his chips. I dont mind Stacey Jones when he chips beacuse Stacey knows when to do it but Donald times it poorly. He loves to chip and thats fine but he should pick the right time and 'surprise' the oppostion with it.