[COVID-19] General Discussion

[General Melchett]

This is why an independent body needs to exist for media, Paid by government but independent from it.

This sounds great in theory but the reality is that elections are now won first and foremost based on who has majority control of the media. Next comes funding and who has the most effective election playbook. It's just not a level playing field anymore where the party who campaigned the best and resonated with Joe Public the most wins.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

This sounds great in theory but the reality is that elections are now won first and foremost based on who has majority control of the media. Next comes funding and who has the most effective election playbook. It's just not a level playing field anymore where the party who campaigned the best and resonated with Joe Public the most wins.

Are you saying that an independent body will be contrilled by government, or are you saying government will never want an independent body because they rely on their media control and have just won an election off of it so it won't be to their advantage to have an independent body?

if the former, my point is government cannot control an independent body. There will be an act of parliament defining their role as unbiased media. Yeah it won't fix things entirely but it will help limit the extent to which people can pull the wool over their eyes.

if the latter, yeah that's a good point, but if the public pushes hard enough for it then it could be a good election ploy for one of the parties to say they will do it. It will make them look honest if they said they would enstate an independent body for media, and make the opposition look dishonest if they fought against it.

 

[General Melchett]

Are you saying that an independent body will be contrilled by government, or are you saying government will never want an independent body because they rely on their media control and have just won an election off of it so it won't be to their advantage to have an independent body?

if the former, my point is government cannot control an independent body. There will be an act of parliament defining their role as unbiased media. Yeah it won't fix things entirely but it will help limit the extent to which people can pull the wool over their eyes.

if the latter, yeah that's a good point, but if the public pushes hard enough for it then it could be a good election ploy for one of the parties to say they will do it. It will make them look honest if they said they would enstate an independent body for media, and make the opposition look dishonest if they fought against it.

I meant the latter. The sort of change you suggest, if promoted by a party, would resonate with me but reckon I'd be in the minority.

 

[The Seeker]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08b9wng

Listen to what baked Potato say.

All of a sudden I have a hankerin' for some tater tots.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Sorry but the caveat he didn't tell people to inject it their veins but suggested that the doctors try testing it doesn't make it better. For one it's still batshit crazy that no doctor would of reasonably suggested it. Two he's clearly misread or misheard something about cleaning and then thought I'm a genius we could test that on humans and I've saved everyone. Lastly he and we all full well know that even if he did say don't try this at home some ******* idiot is going to but he didn't say that. That's why everyone has to say quite loudly don't do it yesterday.

This is also not the first quack cure he's tried to pedal.

Yep he's a dick and what he said was dangerous.










But what he did wasn't as bad as what the media said he did. And the media saying he did that is only going to serve to keep him in power. Actually, The media saying he suggested injecting disinfectant could cure you, that was dangerous. That is more likely to kill people than what trump said. What's more, Trump is probably going to go back to not asking medical experts at all now.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yep he's a dick and what he said was dangerous.










But what he did wasn't as bad as what the media said he did. And the media saying he did that is only going to serve to keep him in power. Actually, The media saying he suggested injecting disinfectant could cure you, that was dangerous. That is more likely to kill people than what trump said. What's more, Trump is probably going to go back to not asking medical experts at all now.

But that is the problem with Trump's way of talking: a lot of what he says leaves open to inferences. This is probably both deliberate and also just the way Trump thinks and talks. And does Trump even listen to medical experts anyway? Or listening and reading crackpots like Mark Grenon when spouting his dangerous nonsense on disinfectant and somehow bringing inside the human body to get rid of Covid-19.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus

And also by his very position what he says carries weight. Especially among the "simple" and vulnerable folk of America who take what their POTUS says as advice.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

But that is the problem with Trump's way of talking: a lot of what he says leaves open to inferences. This is probably both deliberate and also just the way Trump thinks and talks. And does Trump even listen to medical experts anyway? Or listening and reading crackpots like Mark Grenon when spouting his dangerous nonsense on disinfectant and somehow bringing inside the human body to get rid of Covid-19.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus

And also by his very position what he says carries weight. Especially among the "simple" and vulnerable folk of America who take what their POTUS says as advice.

I agree. in addition to that, the media aren't doing the world any favours. I also might have got my assumptions a little wrong here, not that it would make my main points untrue, but from what I read I didn't think his question was at a media briefing- I.e it wasnt intended for the public. That doesn't seem to be what you are insinuating so maybe I misinterpreted.

edit: so I just did some research and it seems it was a media briefing. I also now see that trump is blaming the media. I want to make clear that I did not know this until now. I try to limit my trump news exposure because it is depressing. But I have to say that now I've seen more of the media to's and frow's, it only adds weight to my original argument that the media are doing the world a disfavour. It is very easy to see how pro trump people would dismiss the prospect that trump did anything wrong here. You have articles clearly stating that trump said people should ingest disinfectant, on the one hand, and articles saying it's been taken out of context, and citing good evidence to 'prove' it, on the other hand. So if you look at what is available for trump supporters that could be swayed not to vote for him, you can see which way they might lean.

there doesn't appear to be any articles saying the kinds of things that @Blindside or @ncurd are saying or, if there are, they are buried deep under the other types of articles.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Yep he's a dick and what he said was dangerous.










But what he did wasn't as bad as what the media said he did. And the media saying he did that is only going to serve to keep him in power. Actually, The media saying he suggested injecting disinfectant could cure you, that was dangerous. That is more likely to kill people than what trump said. What's more, Trump is probably going to go back to not asking medical experts at all now.

I listed too him actually say it and, not just the media headlines, and it sounded like he was saying it to me

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning."

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree. in addition to that, the media aren't doing the world any favours. I also might have got my assumptions a little wrong here, not that it would make my main points untrue, but from what I read I didn't think his question was at a media briefing- I.e it wasnt intended for the public. That doesn't seem to be what you are insinuating so maybe I misinterpreted.

edit: so I just did some research and it seems it was a media briefing. I also now see that trump is blaming the media. I want to make clear that I did not know this until now. I try to limit my trump news exposure because it is depressing. But I have to say that now I've seen more of the media to's and frow's, it only adds weight to my original argument that the media are doing the world a disfavour. It is very easy to see how pro trump people would dismiss the prospect that trump did anything wrong here. You have articles clearly stating that trump said people should ingest disinfectant, on the one hand, and articles saying it's been taken out of context, and citing good evidence to 'prove' it, on the other hand. So if you look at what is available for trump supporters that could be swayed not to vote for him, you can see which way they might lean.

there doesn't appear to be any articles saying the kinds of things that @Blindside or @ncurd are saying or, if there are, they are buried deep under the other types of articles.

I think how you are interpreting this is off. Yes Trump didn't literally say for people to inject / ingest it themselves but he WAS proposing it as a valid idea worth looking into. Some of his followers will interpret that as meaning it is a good idea and that they should do it. Trump should know that. However you are focusing more on the media slightly adjusting the story based on the implications of what could happen rather than Trump saying something that was flat out batshit insane and this is now the second time he has recommended "cures" with absolutely zero knowledge and both times it was after suggestions had been made to him by people outside the government about both of those. That should be pretty damn worrying if the president can be influenced to even think of suggesting injecting disinfectant. This is not a case of the media taking something that was said and twisting it to mean something else, this is the media taking a statement that was ******* insane and presenting it as a statement that was ******* insane. The fact the ******* insane statement isn't the exact same ******* insane statement doesn't stop the fact it was a ******* insane statement.

Add to that the pitiful excuses Trump had after, this really is not a story where very mild media sensationalism should even be an issue, it simply isn't. Trump supporters don't care about the truth to begin with and moderates are not going to turn on the media in this case for not reporting it exactly 100% correctly. No I think the media have done exactly the right thing here, everyone knows you do not drink disinfectant so presenting it that way would hopefully activate whatever remains of the reasoning centres in some peoples brains to realise just what a staggeringly idiotic thing it was to say.

Hell even when the media literally quote Trump word for word he denies it and his base lap that up so it's kinda pointless caring.

 

[Gavin]

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I agree. in addition to that, the media aren't doing the world any favours. I also might have got my assumptions a little wrong here, not that it would make my main points untrue, but from what I read I didn't think his question was at a media briefing- I.e it wasnt intended for the public. That doesn't seem to be what you are insinuating so maybe I misinterpreted.

edit: so I just did some research and it seems it was a media briefing. I also now see that trump is blaming the media. I want to make clear that I did not know this until now. I try to limit my trump news exposure because it is depressing. But I have to say that now I've seen more of the media to's and frow's, it only adds weight to my original argument that the media are doing the world a disfavour. It is very easy to see how pro trump people would dismiss the prospect that trump did anything wrong here. You have articles clearly stating that trump said people should ingest disinfectant, on the one hand, and articles saying it's been taken out of context, and citing good evidence to 'prove' it, on the other hand. So if you look at what is available for trump supporters that could be swayed not to vote for him, you can see which way they might lean.

there doesn't appear to be any articles saying the kinds of things that @Blindside or @ncurd are saying or, if there are, they are buried deep under the other types of articles.

It's not hard to find videos of him actually saying it. And not that hard for a leap in the imagination that some people who are not so bright will think to themselves - why inject disinfectant when I can just ingest it directly? Hence why disinfectant manufacturers were quick to release immediate statement not to.

And it's not just the disinfectant suggestion. But also the hydroxychloroquine one. And not done anything wrong here??? Why is Trump even musing about cures? it is not his sodding job to. As he says he is not a Doctor. So stop f'ing making suggestions which have not been tested yet and concentrate on his job of mass testing and providing PPE to all the states and not turning his briefings into political rallies and venting his frustrations at the media attending his briefings.

Whenever he is challenged by legitimate questions from the media attending his briefings and if he doesn't like the question he just belittles the person asking it, doesn't answer the question and calls them fake news. That is the problem during the last 3 years, that the media have been lumped together, when there are still legitimate sections are doing their job of covering the white house and holding Trump to account, and who are doing their job. They are just showing these briefings and Trump as he is - a narcissistic, dangerous idiot, lacking in any empathy who cares more about his ratings and the election in November.

 

[ncurd]

The polls (which should be noted always pointed to Clinton winning until the very end) show Trump really struggling in battleground states. His tactics aren't working over this crisis mainly because you can't bully a virus.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The polls (which should be noted always pointed to Clinton winning until the very end) show Trump really struggling in battleground states. His tactics aren't working over this crisis mainly because you can't bully a virus.

To be fair, the polls were pretty accurate in terms of the relative number of votes between Clinton and Trump, just not on the number of swing states. As long as Trump is losing in swing states, he is likely to lose overall. Hell he was exceptionally lucky to win last time, there had never been a situation where someone had won the popular vote by as much as Clinton but not won the presidency (each time it's a Republican who loses the vote but wins the presidency).

 

[Amiga500]

It's not hard to find videos of him actually saying it. And not that hard for a leap in the imagination that some people who are not so bright will think to themselves - why inject disinfectant when I can just ingest it directly? Hence why disinfectant manufacturers were quick to release immediate statement not to.

And it's not just the disinfectant suggestion. But also the hydroxychloroquine one. And not done anything wrong here??? Why is Trump even musing about cures? it is not his sodding job to. As he says he is not a Doctor. So stop f'ing making suggestions which have not been tested yet and concentrate on his job of mass testing and providing PPE to all the states and not turning his briefings into political rallies and venting his frustrations at the media attending his briefings.

Whenever he is challenged by legitimate questions from the media attending his briefings and if he doesn't like the question he just belittles the person asking it, doesn't answer the question and calls them fake news. That is the problem during the last 3 years, that the media have been lumped together, when there are still legitimate sections are doing their job of covering the white house and holding Trump to account, and who are doing their job. They are just showing these briefings and Trump as he is - a narcissistic, dangerous idiot, lacking in any empathy who cares more about his ratings and the election in November.

Does the man not actually hold a 3 minute stand up before walking out in front of the cameras?

If he'd mentioned those two daft ideas (light & disinfectant) - surely yer Dr there would have advised him in the strongest possible terms not to go with it. You could see how uncomfortable she was trying to figure out a way of saying "don't take disinfectant" without offending the toddler-in-chief.


Amazing that the more rural red states don't have a problem with some stupid yuppy new yorker who only has money 'cos daddy gave it to him and loud mouths off about **** he clearly knows less than f**k all about.

I'd have thought that kinda thing would get their backs right up.

The trump conundrum.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Does the man not actually hold a 3 minute stand up before walking out in front of the cameras?

If he'd mentioned those two daft ideas (light & disinfectant) - surely yer Dr there would have advised him in the strongest possible terms not to go with it. You could see how uncomfortable she was trying to figure out a way of saying "don't take disinfectant" without offending the toddler-in-chief.

By stand up do you mean briefing from his aides and fauci/Birx of what to say and to stay on message? if you did then I don't think he does that's why he reads like a 5 year old from his script to begin with because he does not prepare properly (hasn't read it before)and then he'll go off script to add with his own thoughts and that is why Birx looked so horrified when he said what he did about the light. It's why the whole briefings have taken so long and been such a circus. Even though Republicans have warned him that he should not be on so long, because the less the public see of him the better. But the narcissist and showman in him can't help it.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

It's not hard to find videos of him actually saying it. And not that hard for a leap in the imagination that some people who are not so bright will think to themselves - why inject disinfectant when I can just ingest it directly? Hence why disinfectant manufacturers were quick to release immediate statement not to.

And it's not just the disinfectant suggestion. But also the hydroxychloroquine one. And not done anything wrong here??? Why is Trump even musing about cures? it is not his sodding job to. As he says he is not a Doctor. So stop f'ing making suggestions which have not been tested yet and concentrate on his job of mass testing and providing PPE to all the states and not turning his briefings into political rallies and venting his frustrations at the media attending his briefings.

Whenever he is challenged by legitimate questions from the media attending his briefings and if he doesn't like the question he just belittles the person asking it, doesn't answer the question and calls them fake news. That is the problem during the last 3 years, that the media have been lumped together, when there are still legitimate sections are doing their job of covering the white house and holding Trump to account, and who are doing their job. They are just showing these briefings and Trump as he is - a narcissistic, dangerous idiot, lacking in any empathy who cares more about his ratings and the election in November.

I don't understand where the "and not done anything wrong here?" Question is coming from, sounds like it's targeted at me. I said he did wrong.

Lumping the media together, dismissing them, calling them fake news, this is the sort of thing he couldn't get away with if the media was legitimately impartial and trusted as such. An independent body I think is the only way to achieve that. I saw some pretty striking stats from a survey a while back, showing the ratings of bias of different media outlets by Democrat supporters compared to republicans. They were direct opposites. That's pretty amazing from a rational point of view, and goes to demonstrate people aren't using their own judgement all too often. The only outlets that were reasonably unbiased according to both Democrats and republicans were ones no one ever reads. It was probably just a case of people saying they were biased because they didn't know about them. This essentially means people are only believing the outlets that are heavily biased in their favour.

Both of those videos you posted are biased, which is exactly my point. Not that there is nothing to report, but that by making it biased you just invoke the defence mechanism of trump supporters, and continues to encourage them not to listen to media that isn't biased in trumps favour . I'm not saying a rational person couldn't deduce that trump was in the wrong, I'm saying not many people are rational, and they're not looking at the same news you are.

I think how you are interpreting this is off. Yes Trump didn't literally say for people to inject / ingest it themselves but he WAS proposing it as a valid idea worth looking into. Some of his followers will interpret that as meaning it is a good idea and that they should do it. Trump should know that. However you are focusing more on the media slightly adjusting the story based on the implications of what could happen rather than Trump saying something that was flat out batshit insane and this is now the second time he has recommended "cures" with absolutely zero knowledge and both times it was after suggestions had been made to him by people outside the government about both of those. That should be pretty damn worrying if the president can be influenced to even think of suggesting injecting disinfectant. This is not a case of the media taking something that was said and twisting it to mean something else, this is the media taking a statement that was ******* insane and presenting it as a statement that was ******* insane. The fact the ******* insane statement isn't the exact same ******* insane statement doesn't stop the fact it was a ******* insane statement.

Add to that the pitiful excuses Trump had after, this really is not a story where very mild media sensationalism should even be an issue, it simply isn't. Trump supporters don't care about the truth to begin with and moderates are not going to turn on the media in this case for not reporting it exactly 100% correctly. No I think the media have done exactly the right thing here, everyone knows you do not drink disinfectant so presenting it that way would hopefully activate whatever remains of the reasoning centres in some peoples brains to realise just what a staggeringly idiotic thing it was to say.

Hell even when the media literally quote Trump word for word he denies it and his base lap that up so it's kinda pointless caring.

yea I am focusing on the media, not because I think it is the most important thing here. I am not providing an overview of how this thing should be interpreted. I am providing a commentary about the media for which this example was an avenue.

but seriously, put yourselves in the place of a not die hard trump supporter and read some of the articles. It's very easy to see how such a person could dismiss this as trump not doing anything wrong. You are hopefully correct about the very much on the fence supporters, but those less on the fence that still aren't diehard, I'm not so sure. I can picture their arguments.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

but seriously, put yourselves in the place of a not die hard trump supporter and read some of the articles. It's very easy to see how such a person could dismiss this as trump not doing anything wrong. You are hopefully correct about the very much on the fence supporters, but those less on the fence that still aren't diehard, I'm not so sure. I can picture their arguments.

I think most not die hard Trump supporters can very easily see that Trump is doing stuff wrong and it's the die hard ones who can't. If choosing between "the media made Trump look bad when he wasn't" and "Trump said something bad" I think they'd be more inclined to accept the latter. Got to remember the actual video where he said this has also been widely distributed for everyone to see for themselves. What the media says beyond that is not all that important when people can see for themselves him making yet another massive fuckup. Got to remember this isn't the first time and you can only accuse the media of being liars for so long. He has now openly stated it was "sarcasm", that won't endear him to anyone either. There is no way he walks out of it better than when he walked in and I seriously doubt anyone will be critical of the media's reporting in this case except his die hard base, the sort who are out in the streets making a nuisance of themselves.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I think most not die hard Trump supporters can very easily see that Trump is doing stuff wrong and it's the die hard ones who can't. If choosing between "the media made Trump look bad when he wasn't" and "Trump said something bad" I think they'd be more inclined to accept the latter. Got to remember the actual video where he said this has also been widely distributed for everyone to see for themselves. What the media says beyond that is not all that important when people can see for themselves him making yet another massive fuckup. Got to remember this isn't the first time and you can only accuse the media of being liars for so long. He has now openly stated it was "sarcasm", that won't endear him to anyone either. There is no way he walks out of it better than when he walked in and I seriously doubt anyone will be critical of the media's reporting in this case except his die hard base, the sort who are out in the streets making a nuisance of themselves.

Well hopefully you are right. But when headlines say things like "trump suggests people should ingest disinfectant to cure covid" or "outcry after trumps suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment" or "doctors reject trumps dangerous suggestion to use disinfectant to treat covid", and you know most people only read headlines, you can see how the media can look like the bad guy. My google of trump disinfectant came up with 6 relevant results on the first page, only 2 of which stated he suggested disinfectant "could" be a treatment.

he has said so many dangerous or completely untrue things during this covid crisis that you'd rationally expect he'd have virtually no supporters left. But he does. People keep predicting supporters will finally turn in light of his latest catastrophe, yet they don't.

maybe this time.

 

[Amiga500]

This essentially means people are only believing the outlets that are heavily biased in their favour.

True. Very true and people getting more and more of their "news" from the echo chamber that is social media certainly doesn't help.



However, sometimes on a rare occasion, reality intervenes and plays to its own script and above any media bias.

I had my attention drawn to a study that looked at the differences in COVID presentation between two Faux News presenters, Tucker and Hannity.
Hannity played it down from the word go, whereas Tucker was quite alarmed early on.

Anyway, those that compiled the study did a lot of normalising for mitigating factors etc and end result was - many more people that watched Hannity are now dead than those who watched Tucker.

https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/BFI_WP_202044.pdf

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I don't understand where the "and not done anything wrong here?" Question is coming from, sounds like it's targeted at me. I said he did wrong.

Lumping the media together, dismissing them, calling them fake news, this is the sort of thing he couldn't get away with if the media was legitimately impartial and trusted as such. An independent body I think is the only way to achieve that. I saw some pretty striking stats from a survey a while back, showing the ratings of bias of different media outlets by Democrat supporters compared to republicans. They were direct opposites. That's pretty amazing from a rational point of view, and goes to demonstrate people aren't using their own judgement all too often. The only outlets that were reasonably unbiased according to both Democrats and republicans were ones no one ever reads. It was probably just a case of people saying they were biased because they didn't know about them. This essentially means people are only believing the outlets that are heavily biased in their favour.

Both of those videos you posted are biased, which is exactly my point. Not that there is nothing to report, but that by making it biased you just invoke the defence mechanism of trump supporters, and continues to encourage them not to listen to media that isn't biased in trumps favour . I'm not saying a rational person couldn't deduce that trump was in the wrong, I'm saying not many people are rational, and they're not looking at the same news you are.

yea I am focusing on the media, not because I think it is the most important thing here. I am not providing an overview of how this thing should be interpreted. I am providing a commentary about the media for which this example was an avenue.

but seriously, put yourselves in the place of a not die hard trump supporter and read some of the articles. It's very easy to see how such a person could dismiss this as trump not doing anything wrong. You are hopefully correct about the very much on the fence supporters, but those less on the fence that still aren't diehard, I'm not so sure. I can picture their arguments.

The problem is that you won't get an "independent body" in USA to regulate the media because of the first amendment of the constitution. That is for the courts to uphold and invariably you will find they allow media to say what they want in the USA because of the first amendment. You also fail to see the role of the media to hold Trump to account and ask the legitimate questions, which he has invariably failed to answer.

Unless you're willing to watch the daily white house briefings in full to get your unadulterated take on Trump, which is not "skewed" through the lens of the media, as you say, then please be my guest - they are broadcast live. Unfortunately, the media are the lens through which most of us are fed the news and we have to differentiate between the skewed and legitimate news unless we are in attendance at these briefings.

Hence why some are BS, but you also have to recognise that there are media outlets which are legitimate. That is price we have to pay in a democracy today where we have sort through the news stories which we find fair. This is the spectrum of media we have in our liberal democracies, which has been further widened with social media and commentators who are not part of the established media outlets.

Just because I put up two videos which you claim to be bias and reinforce your view that Trump supporters are right that it is biased, does not make it so. And how is it bias? What is your definition of fair and unbiased media outlets?

And you also failed to mention that Trump took office with the express intent of by-passing the media because of his strategy of using Twitter as a platform to directly communicate to his base, as well as the use of his rallies to whip up his support base. He is using these briefings in place of the rallies. How is that not disseminating biased news? Should that be regulated as well by the independent body you are calling for?

For Trump supporters it is not about the substance of what Trump is saying but identifying with him and yes what he stands for - a white nationalist leader who is the last stand before the white American majority taken over by the Hispanic, black, Asian minorities and the white caucasian become the minority. They identify with his brand, what he stands for and no matter what he says and looney sounding they will stand by him and vote for him. The election in November won't be decided by them, but the swing state voters and the Democrat voters coming out in force to vote for Biden.

I personally think the age of Trump is the culmination of the America losing it's grip on reality - the highest office in the land being occupied by a tv reality star, and a bankrupt one at that, who has sewn division in America at a time to further his wealth and power. America was polarised before Trump came along, he has just taken advantage of it.