[COVID-19] General Discussion

[Amiga500]

And that last point is insane. People who vote Tory do not vote Tory because they hate the NHS. It's just BS. Most Conservatives would prefer that the NHSs future is protected through fiscal conservatism rather than pouring money into it now and risking bankrupting the country and no longer being able to fund it later.

Yeah, see this is a fundamental problem in the makeup of society.

Blair pulled the wool over everyone's eyes with the fragrant use of PPP - instead of the govt forking out for infrastructure private companies built it and then were set up to ream the public finances in rent for decades after.

The Tories cut massively into the budgets - but they were damned if they did, damned if they didn't. I'd have much preferred if they instead had abandoned the Trident replacement - thats a waste of ~£30 billion (lifetime program cost of 30 years) - and the two carriers & planes - another £15 billion (lifetime cost of 30 years).

But to put that into context the annual budget for the NHS is £140 billion.

So even those two headline defence programs are loose change in comparison (about 1% NHS' budget annually).


Looking at where govt does spend (https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk):

and you can already see:
- big items are health and pensions. Fancy cutting pensions anyone?
- we already waste 6% on servicing debt interest. We do not want to waste more on that by further big deficits.
- welfare is 15%, but as soon as anyone looks at it they are pilloried for it
- defence is 6%, yeah, if the country decided to step back from thinking its a big international player, that could be trimmed, but again, its not gonna make a massive change to available monies
- education is already underfunded in the primary and secondary sectors. I'd argue that too many people go to university and do courses of no practical purpose, most of them would be better streaming to vocational courses after secondary

If anyone wants to look through this and find what they'd like to cut, please do so!

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2020UKbn_17bc1n#ukgs302

Of course, people could accept the obvious - if they want high class public services then they must pay for it in taxes.

 

[Amiga500]

duplicate

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

And that last point is insane. People who vote Tory do not vote Tory because they hate the NHS. It's just BS. Most Conservatives would prefer that the NHSs future is protected through fiscal conservatism rather than pouring money into it now and risking bankrupting the country and no longer being able to fund it later.

You can't just say that the want to ensure the "NHS['s] future is protected through fiscal conservatism" and accept people to believe that without offering any evidence on how that works. Refusing to fund the NHS and then complaining about how the NHS sucks to justify more cuts seems to be the UK Conservative playbook in this regard.

The UK is such an enormously wealthy country that it would be impossible for you to go bankrupt. Your government spending as a percentage of GDP is closer to America's than other western democracies. It's nowhere near being at risk of bankruptcy or even economy crushing inflation.

 

[ncurd]

When Gavin talks about virtue signalling for clap for carers this is what he was talking about

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1251054505803816966

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

You can't just say that the want to ensure the "NHS['s] future is protected through fiscal conservatism" and accept people to believe that without offering any evidence on how that works. Refusing to fund the NHS and then complaining about how the NHS sucks to justify more cuts seems to be the UK Conservative playbook in this regard.

The UK is such an enormously wealthy country that it would be impossible for you to go bankrupt. Your government spending as a percentage of GDP is closer to America's than other western democracies. It's nowhere near being at risk of bankruptcy or even economy crushing inflation.

That's a fairly basic part of fiscal conservatism no? Spending within your means to protect the future economic stability of your country, thus protecting future investment.

I'm not gonna try and have the argument about which economic system is the best, all I was saying was that suggesting that Tory's are hypocritical by clapping for the NHS is a close minded one. It suggests that people that vote tory don't love the NHS and want it to succeed. It's just not true.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

When Gavin talks about virtue signalling for clap for carers this is what he was talking about

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1251054505803816966

I hadn't seen this but yeah that's insanity. Like what the ****

 

[ncurd]

But we can fund the NHS far better so it can live within thier means and be more successful, the issue is governments don't want to raise taxes on those who could afford it.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

That's a fairly basic part of fiscal conservatism no? Spending within your means to protect the future economic stability of your country, thus protecting future investment.

I'm not gonna try and have the argument about which economic system is the best, all I was saying was that suggesting that Tory's are hypocritical by clapping for the NHS is a close minded one. It suggests that people that vote tory don't love the NHS and want it to succeed. It's just not true.

if you're saying that a fairly basic part of fiscal conservatism is your accomplishing things without evidence then yes, we are in agreement

I'm not entirely opposed fiscal conservatism but at least I'm honest about my intentions. Like I don't particularly like subsidizing the oil industry cause I think they are a negative on society.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I thought the clapping was a good idea on the first night - didn't realise it was a weekly thing.
Not that fussed either way but I don't(/my dog doesn't) like the fireworks people are setting off, I also don't like the hypocrisy of my heavily tory neighbours out in the front garden banging pots and pans while gleefully voting for our vile MP.

https://www.facebook.com/1786599751616434/posts/2947163118893419/?vh=e&d=n

This dog thought the clapping was for him.

 

[Gavin]

When Gavin talks about virtue signalling for clap for carers this is what he was talking about

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1251054505803816966

Exactly. Stuff like this. Saw it today and thought it was mental.

But also people who clap for the doctors and NHS workers, yet vocally criticised the junior doctors when they asked for a pay increase.

The comment about it being ironic that people clap yet vote Conservative was more of a generalisation, but still a discussion point.

 

[General Melchett]

Anyone else noticed an increased amount of rule circumvention/bending?

I often do a few laps of a nearby park and there are often people sat sunbathing on the grass for at least half an hour dressed in sports gear to make it look like they are on a rest break. Have no issue with people stopping to rest or for medical reasons but I've noticed some awfully long rest breaks of late. Front garden meet ups also seem to be on the up.

 

[ncurd]

Anyone else noticed an increased amount of rule circumvention/bending?

I often do a few laps of a nearby park and there are often people sat sunbathing on the grass for at least half an hour dressed in sports gear to make it look like they are on a rest break. Have no issue with people stopping to rest or for medical reasons but I've noticed some awfully long rest breaks of late. Front garden meet ups also seem to be on the up.

Said this elsewhere this is problem with saying we should of lockeddown earlier to some degree whilst it made medical sense people will increasingly breech the rules as time goes on. They needed to time it so they'd get maximum compliance at the right point. Of course that's not to say they were right and clearly in the first week people basically ignored it so stricter guidance had to come in.

 

[Amiga500]

Said this elsewhere this is problem with saying we should of lockeddown earlier to some degree whilst it made medical sense people will increasingly breech the rules as time goes on.

Better to lockdown when you are trying to stop hundreds of people spreading the virus rather than tens of thousands.

If they had done it back then early Feb - and got their finger out of their hole with testing & tracing - then along with severely curtailed and controlled arrivals into the country, we'd probably be well beyond peak and now looking at largely releasing most measures.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

But we can fund the NHS far better so it can live within thier means and be more successful, the issue is governments don't want to raise taxes on those who could afford it.

Yep and cutting tax relief on pensions for higher rate and additional rate payers is a must if any future Government is serious about saving money and diverting it to resources which it is needed, like the NHS. I am studying it and and claiming it for clients and how much they save is ridiculous. the System is bent so far in their favour. And when the Government try and reform it like cutting it for AR payers, it then affects consultants for the NHS, who then refuse to do any more work because it's costing them. You know there is little thought going into how they raise revenue because they are too sensitive that it is going to be a vote loser.

contact tracing app by google and apple.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52330531

Trump now siding with protesters to force an end to lockdowns, noticeably only calling for the "liberation" of the Democrat states that had protests.

But of course it's still just orange man bad isn't it?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How long until the first police oficer/health worker gets shot down by some pin dick with an AR-15?
All in the name of FREEDOM*


*terms and conditions apply

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Cuomo shooting down the WUMP's criticism.

And this is how dumb Trump's administration is that KellyAnne Conway said this:

 

[Gavin]

Those protests in USA, I just can't get my head around it.

People who are out of work in USA are companies able to apply for government / state financial help to keep their employees on the books?

Or is this where the protests stem from - a lack of employee rights and support from the government / state

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

gov set up a system to give small businesses loans but they didn't instruct banks how they were supposed to do it. Apparently that program has also ran out of programs.

Protests are combination of people scared they aren't going to have money and also just hating the government.

 

[General Melchett]

Protests are combination of people scared they aren't going to have money and also just hating the government.

Sounds like a social unrest warm up.