[COVID-19] General Discussion

[Leonormous Boozer]

The EU are just the suppliers to individual nations really, any issues the MSs are having are their own, looking at Holland as the worst example of a slow roll out. I would speculate that AZ are in breach of contract purely because it'd be a real change of approach to Brexit issues if the EU all of a sudden began to throw their toys out of the pram although there is definitely an degree of posturing going on. I would also hazard a guess that the remedies for breach of contract don't provide harsh enough penalties for AZ not to meet the demanded requirements.

It's a bit of a mess but anyone looking at it thinking it's vindicated Brexit or is a stock to beat the EU in any way is probably wide of the mark. Saying the EU are "several steps behind" is conveniently ignoring that the UK definitely took a risk approving the vaccines when they did and risked/cost lives with their 12 week gap and overestimating the efficacy of the first jab. Ultimately the UK benefited from a less prudent approach.

Edit: Was off grid prior to writing this... Article 16 is ******* brain dead regardless of the circs.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think the EU should be congratulated for a stunning piece of diplomacy. They've managed to get the DUP, Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the UUP to agree on something.

Are you a joke writer? Adam Hill said the same thing on The Last Leg about 20 minutes ago!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Jesus, just reading more about the EUs antics tonight,
They've **** the bed so hard on this.

Actually makes Bojo and the Tories look like the goodies, which is some doing - I wouldn't expect the EU to be the ones jeopardising the GFA.

Puts Ireland in a really **** situation as well - are they expected to police the (effective) hard border between Ireland(/the EU) and Northern Ireland now?

All of this really couldn't have come at a better time for the Tories



Edit:
EU backed down already, about 2hrs after announcing it.
Got to imagine the Americans got involved for them to turn face so quickly after playing hardball all week - Biden/Pelosi have been very outspoken about the GFA


Double edit:
Japan, South Korea and Australia coming out against the EUs blocks on vaccine export as well - as they all have contracts with EU based companies.

 

[McTallshort]

The EU are just the suppliers to individual nations really, any issues the MSs are having are their own, looking at Holland as the worst example of a slow roll out. I would speculate that AZ are in breach of contract purely because it'd be a real change of approach to Brexit issues if the EU all of a sudden began to throw their toys out of the pram although there is definitely an degree of posturing going on. I would also hazard a guess that the remedies for breach of contract don't provide harsh enough penalties for AZ not to meet the demanded requirements.

It's a bit of a mess but anyone looking at it thinking it's vindicated Brexit or is a stock to beat the EU in any way is probably wide of the mark. Saying the EU are "several steps behind" is conveniently ignoring that the UK definitely took a risk approving the vaccines when they did and risked/cost lives with their 12 week gap and overestimating the efficacy of the first jab. Ultimately the UK benefited from a less prudent approach.

Edit: Was off grid prior to writing this... Article 16 is ******* brain dead regardless of the circs.

The UK didn't take any risks and you cannot prove they did. The main difference was any jab agreed by the EU had to go through an additional set of criteria and testing.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Are you a joke writer? Adam Hill said the same thing on The Last Leg about 20 minutes ago!

As original thoughts go, it probably wasn't the most unique. I saw it written on Facebook about 5 mins after I posted it here.

 

[ncurd]

The UK didn't take any risks and you cannot prove they did. The main difference was any jab agreed by the EU had to go through an additional set of criteria and testing.

This isn't true either, we were in the EU (well abiding their rules) when we approved the vaccine. Which meant we had to go through exactly the same process as them.

What really happened is the UK just highly prioritised the process to make sure it got done ASAP. But it wasn't due to Brexit we did just people working hard.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The UK didn't take any risks and you cannot prove they did. The main difference was any jab agreed by the EU had to go through an additional set of criteria and testing.

I was wrong there, more or less identical processes. The difference being that the EU requires all MSs to approve. So "several steps behind" is actually just waiting two weeks for more bodies to satisfy themselves themselves that the vaccine is safe. The 12 week gap is a risk though, it's 6-8+ weeks of added exposure to the virus and the UK are the outlier there with few if any other countries having a gap any longer than 6 weeks there. Equally there's nothing to stop an EU country to take that approach anyway.

Ultimately my point stands, the UK doing something well isn't a stick to beat the EU with and they are benefitting from a less prudent approach, more prudent than I had thought though.

On the other hand it's no reason for the EU to act the **** like last night for all the we reasons. Von Der Leyen better be getting an earful from anyone and everyone today for actioning that that and Mairead McGuinness (Irish Commissioner) further proved herself to be thick as pig muck. Junker never did anything so stupid in his 5 year term, it took VDL 14 months to show total incompetence... Merkel must be raging too.

 

[Reiser99]

I was wrong there, more or less identical processes. The difference being that the EU requires all MSs to approve. So "several steps behind" is actually just waiting two weeks for more bodies to satisfy themselves themselves that the vaccine is safe. The 12 week gap is a risk though, it's 6-8+ weeks of added exposure to the virus and the UK are the outlier there with few if any other countries having a gap any longer than 6 weeks there. Equally there's nothing to stop an EU country to take that approach anyway.

Ultimately my point stands, the UK doing something well isn't a stick to beat the EU with and they are benefitting from a less prudent approach, more prudent than I had thought though.

On the other hand it's no reason for the EU to act the **** like last night for all the we reasons. Von Der Leyen better be getting an earful from anyone and everyone today for actioning that that and Mairead McGuinness (Irish Commissioner) further proved herself to be thick as pig muck. Junker never did anything so stupid in his 5 year term, it took VDL 14 months to show total incompetence... Merkel must be raging too.

Basically it's Brexit in a nutshell. E.U has taken a group approach that benefits all members, where as the U.K decided to only care about itself. I know people say that you have to look out for your own, but for me that's where most of our world's problems come from. People only thinking about what's best for themselves in the short term, rather than what's best for everyone long term. I honestly don't think the selfish short-term view will be viable with less and less resources.

 

[McTallshort]

This isn't true either, we were in the EU (well abiding their rules) when we approved the vaccine. Which meant we had to go through exactly the same process as them.

What really happened is the UK just highly prioritised the process to make sure it got done ASAP. But it wasn't due to Brexit we did just people working hard.

I never mentioned Brexit

 

[McTallshort]

Basically it's Brexit in a nutshell. E.U has taken a group approach that benefits all members, where as the U.K decided to only care about itself. I know people say that you have to look out for your own, but for me that's where most of our world's problems come from. People only thinking about what's best for themselves in the short term, rather than what's best for everyone long term. I honestly don't think the selfish short-term view will be viable with less and less resources.

That's rubbish. There is an article on the BBC explaining why the EU vaccine program has been slow and it certainly doesn't show a united front.

 

[ncurd]

I never mentioned Brexit

No but the government tired to claim it was a reason we were able to approve it quicker which was partially to do with your point.

 

[McTallshort]

No but the government tired to claim it was a reason we were able to approve it quicker which was partially to do with your point.

I was looking this up on the BBC website and the explanation was: The UK along with other EU countries like Denmark put notice in that they would seek to aquire and approve supplies of the Vaccines themselves which EU members are allowed to do on a temporary basis (it didn't matter to the UK as they would be leaving anyway) The EU continued to secure supplies and had its own process for approving these Vaccines. So Vaccines for individual EU members went through an initial approval with them then another one via the EU, so members like Denmark just cracked on while others like Germany and Holland waited for EU approval. Also there was a delay in signing the contracts due to the EU trying to drive the price down.

So the EU was behind on approval, behind on securing supply's and we're certainly not showing a united front. Now they are in the **** and trying to blame AZ amongst other things on why that is. They have reacted badly and triggering article 16 smacks of desperation.

You also have the fact that take up of the vaccine is very slow due to Europeans in general being more suspicious of the vaccine. In France its estimated only 40% of people are willing to have the vaccine compared to 88% in the UK.

Look, I get it. Boris and his gang have ****** things up royally but on the vaccine you have to say the levers of power seem to be working and I know it's not fashionable to pull up the EU on here but they have proper made a hash of this and have made the tories look almost competent.

 

[ncurd]

Snip.

Not really saying they haven't because they clearly have. Just it's got bugger all to with B word why we've done well think its got bugger all to do with the G word either.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What I don't get was why the EU was going so crazy over this?
I haven't been following stuff too close but was the UK bullish about **** or was it just too much internal pressure and some people getting over their head or what?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

What I don't get was why the EU was going so crazy over this?
I haven't been following stuff too close but was the UK bullish about **** or was it just too much internal pressure and some people getting over their head or what?

BENELUX and Germany are really trying to twist the knife post Brexit, they currently have quite a strong influence over the commission too. Saw it as well with customs at the start, the Dutch were putting clubs of taking lorry drivers lunch off them on the news ffs, the French on the other hand were far more blazé and disinterested in comparison. I'd guess it has to do with strong conservative parties in Eastern European countries trying to leave the EU and the potential negatives are greater for central European countries.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

What I don't get was why the EU was going so crazy over this?
I haven't been following stuff too close but was the UK bullish about **** or was it just too much internal pressure and some people getting over their head or what?

Somewhat cynically, I think this was just the first major oppertunity for both sides to make a statement of intent post Brexit and the EU has undenialy ****** it up and is now scrambling to make a statement, but just digging themselves deeper as they try...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Somewhat cynically, I think this was just the first major oppertunity for both sides to make a statement of intent post Brexit and the EU has undenialy ****** it up and is now scrambling to make a statement, but just digging themselves deeper as they try...

Yeah it definitely looks like they're looking to shift the blame - the EU delayed vaccine rollout in multiple countries who were ready to go (I do kind of understand why, wanting an EU-wide roll out etc.) and the population of these countries are (rightfully) angry.
Need to direct that elsewhere.

 

[Reiser99]

I was looking this up on the BBC website and the explanation was: The UK along with other EU countries like Denmark put notice in that they would seek to aquire and approve supplies of the Vaccines themselves which EU members are allowed to do on a temporary basis (it didn't matter to the UK as they would be leaving anyway) The EU continued to secure supplies and had its own process for approving these Vaccines. So Vaccines for individual EU members went through an initial approval with them then another one via the EU, so members like Denmark just cracked on while others like Germany and Holland waited for EU approval. Also there was a delay in signing the contracts due to the EU trying to drive the price down.

So the EU was behind on approval, behind on securing supply's and we're certainly not showing a united front. Now they are in the **** and trying to blame AZ amongst other things on why that is. They have reacted badly and triggering article 16 smacks of desperation.

You also have the fact that take up of the vaccine is very slow due to Europeans in general being more suspicious of the vaccine. In France its estimated only 40% of people are willing to have the vaccine compared to 88% in the UK.

Look, I get it. Boris and his gang have ****** things up royally but on the vaccine you have to say the levers of power seem to be working and I know it's not fashionable to pull up the EU on here but they have proper made a hash of this and have made the tories look almost competent.

I don't completely disagree and I think the EU have ****** it up. One issue that hasn't been made much of though is that some of the facilities where the vaccines are being produced in the UK were funded by EU money when we were still part of the EU, therefore they feel if they helped invest in it, then they should get some benefits.

My main point was that its a contrast in attitudes. Britain is now Britain first, where as the EU is all about working together, even if they don't get it right. TBH part of it is Boris an co signing any deal for vaccines they could regardless of if they would work. Yes it's paid off and is working, but it could easily have backfired.

Interestingly the WHO has called on Britain to share some of it's vaccines once the most vulnerable are vaccinated to other countries. This could very easily turn into a Britain hoarding vaccines narrative.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

attitudes. Britain is now Britain first, where as the EU is all about working together

They're EU first
Whilst that is 27 countries banded together they're not doing this for the greater good (the greater good) of the world - hence Japan, Korea and Australia speaking out about it as the EUs new rules are going to screw them over

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I don't completely disagree and I think the EU have ****** it up. One issue that hasn't been made much of though is that some of the facilities where the vaccines are being produced in the UK were funded by EU money when we were still part of the EU, therefore they feel if they helped invest in it, then they should get some benefits.

My main point was that its a contrast in attitudes. Britain is now Britain first, where as the EU is all about working together, even if they don't get it right. TBH part of it is Boris an co signing any deal for vaccines they could regardless of if they would work. Yes it's paid off and is working, but it could easily have backfired.

Interestingly the WHO has called on Britain to share some of it's vaccines once the most vulnerable are vaccinated to other countries. This could very easily turn into a Britain hoarding vaccines narrative.

I dont buy that middle paragraph at all, but yes I agree this could be twisted into a vaccine hoarding narrative.

Ultimately, EU beurocracy led to them signing a shitty contract waaay later than they should have and then being surprised that it hasn't worked out for them. The UK and AZ have been clear that once our contract is fulfilled then the EU can have the vaccines, that come after our 100Mill... If we were looking to hoard then that wouldn't be the case...

The whole "working together" argument is horse **** when the leading actor in the EU just abandons the joint vaccine purchases, persues it's own purchases outside of a deal and tells others they aren't allowed to do the same. Leading actors in the EU then start casting wholly political doubt on the safety and efficacy of vaccines purely to cover their **** up with the illusion that not having a quick vaccine response actually a tactical evaluation of risk decided after the fact. This wasn't "working together for the greater good", it was an attempt by the EU to further extend it's power that went ***s up.


This whole situation is very sad, but unfortunately not particularly surprising when you actually look at how the EU works and how it deals with stress testing - when put into crisis mode, the EU beurocracy is simply not condusive to an effective response that benefits everyone...