Champions Cup 15/16 - Rd 6 Pool 5 (Bath, Leinster, Toulon, Wasps)

[munstermuffin]

Didn't see the game but from the reports Leinster made our game in Paris look some bit better.
Just off topic how did Sexton get injured? I'd be very worried about him going forward.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Didn't see the game but from the reports Leinster made our game in Paris look some bit better.
Just off topic how did Sexton get injured? I'd be very worried about him going forward.

Clash of heads with Brendan Macken. Apparently he wasn't too crocked after the game. Still though, one or 2 more head knocks that he (inevitably) picks up will force him into retirement.

I'd say the Leinster game was slightly worse than the Munster game due to the scoreline but we put out a half and half team in a dead rubber game and were well in the game up until half time whilst Munster were fighting to stay in the competition and only got a consolation score in the last few minutes.

 

[munstermuffin]

Clash of heads with Brendan Macken. Apparently he wasn't too crocked after the game. Still though, one or 2 more head knocks that he (inevitably) picks up will force him into retirement.

I'd say the Leinster game was slightly worse than the Munster game due to the scoreline but we put out a half and half team in a dead rubber game and were well in the game up until half time whilst Munster were fighting to stay in the competition and only got a consolation score in the last few minutes.

I'd disagree regards the half and half team. Yes ye rested few but that was a strong team of international experienced guys. And Munster were weakened too and as good as out after the Leicester loss at home. But well regardless they should've done better.

But regards Sexton, if he's not careful he will end up seriously hurt. Too much bangs on head is like playing with fire.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

I'd disagree regards the half and half team. Yes ye rested few but that was a strong team of international experienced guys. And Munster were weakened too and as good as out after the Leicester loss at home. But well regardless they should've done better.

But regards Sexton, if he's not careful he will end up seriously hurt. Too much bangs on head is like playing with fire.

7 of our starting XV today (Cronin, Moore, Ryan, Murphy, Reddan, Reid, Kirchner) wouldn't make our starting XV, even 23 in most cases.

Sexton is in serious trouble. He's one of Ireland's most stubborn players and I doubt he'll retire without a fight, which will put his health, both long term and short term, in jeopardy.

 

[munstermuffin]

7 of our starting XV today (Cronin, Moore, Ryan, Murphy, Reddan, Reid, Kirchner) wouldn't make our starting XV, even 23 in most cases.

Sexton is in serious trouble. He's one of Ireland's most stubborn players and I doubt he'll retire without a fight, which will put his health, both long term and short term, in jeopardy.

Fair on 7 BUT 6 are internationals and that's no excuse really. I don't think selection can be used as a really strong excuse.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Fair on 7 BUT 6 are internationals and that's no excuse really. I don't think selection can be used as a really strong excuse.

It can and it can't! Not by saying these guys aren't starters anyway, half of those guys were at the start of the season and as you said they're internationals who should do better. The issue in selection was much the same as last time we played Wasps, playing players out of position. Ruddock, Fitz and Kirchner were all out of position and it effected the team cohesion all across the park. Sexton is good enough to make playing with two 12's possible but Marsh isn't and that hurt us big. Annoying as we handed Wasps another easy win which shouldn't have happened and the players ought to be ashamed of themselves but Cullen must put his hand up again and improve again, next year we need a squad with depth in every position, we'll have to find something at 10 fast.

 

[Tony Manx]

7 ......Sexton is in serious trouble. He's one of Ireland's most stubborn players and I doubt he'll retire without a fight, which will put his health, both long term and short term, in jeopardy.

Have to say, he really, or probably the medical team, should call it quits for him!!

He has had too many hits to the head now with prolonged periods out of the game! He has a life with children I believe and he really is pushing the envelope now! I do not say this other than out of player welfare incidentally!

 

[munstermuffin]

It can and it can't! Not by saying these guys aren't starters anyway, half of those guys were at the start of the season and as you said they're internationals who should do better. The issue in selection was much the same as last time we played Wasps, playing players out of position. Ruddock, Fitz and Kirchner were all out of position and it effected the team cohesion all across the park. Sexton is good enough to make playing with two 12's possible but Marsh isn't and that hurt us big. Annoying as we handed Wasps another easy win which shouldn't have happened and the players ought to be ashamed of themselves but Cullen must put his hand up again and improve again, next year we need a squad with depth in every position, we'll have to find something at 10 fast.

But here's my views. (I'm in Italy and didn't see game so may be wrong)
Kirchner has played wing enough to be adequate there. That shouldn't be a weakness in terms of turning it to their heaviest defeat.
Likewise Fitz is a centre now

 

[Maverick1987]

7 of our starting XV today (Cronin, Moore, Ryan, Murphy, Reddan, Reid, Kirchner) wouldn't make our starting XV, even 23 in most cases.

Sexton is in serious trouble. He's one of Ireland's most stubborn players and I doubt he'll retire without a fight, which will put his health, both long term and short term, in jeopardy.

You are talking rubbish . What a shame you weren't able to say "Well done Wasps you were superb today in attack and defence" . Instead you come up with all sorts of crap about selections and referees . You had the floor wiped with you by a far superior team on the day . End of story . There were plenty of internationals on that field to keep the game close .

I believe 14 out of your 15 starting players have international experience. Wasps had 10 out of 15 starting with international experience . You even had 4 lions in your starting line up too

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But here's my views. (I'm in Italy and didn't see game so may be wrong)
Kirchner has played wing enough to be adequate there. That shouldn't be a weakness in terms of turning it to their heaviest defeat.
Likewise Fitz is a centre now

Kirchner has never impressed there, he's not a wing regardless if how many times he's been pushed in there. Fitz is wasted at 13, he can't use his feet or hands as effectively than when at 12 and he doesn't defend there as well either. 13 and 12 are different positions.

I'm also not buying into the argument of having more internationals and therefore we should have played better. Bath had 6 internationals in their backline last week but, just like our team this week, there was serious flaws in their selection and they got punished. Losing Sexton for Marsh was worth about 20 points, the aforementioned players out of position damaged Leinster in attack and defence, the backrow lacked carrying and turnover ability and the second row was too lightweight. I think Cullen was throwing as many players who wouldn't be available in the matches that actually matter in the coming weeks so squad fatigue would be at a minimum but he certainly paid the price just like last time against Wasps. International players are only international standard players if played in their correct positions surrounded by players who compliment them, surely anyone who watched England in the World Cup understands that, that's why Leinster went from a game that they should have fought closely in to one that they looked completely out of their depth.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

You are talking rubbish . What a shame you weren't able to say "Well done Wasps you were superb today in attack and defence" . Instead you come up with all sorts of crap about selections and referees . You had the floor wiped with you by a far superior team on the day . End of story . There were plenty of internationals on that field to keep the game close .

I believe 14 out of your 15 starting players have international experience. Wasps had 10 out of 15 starting with international experience . You even had 4 lions in your starting line up too

What?
I said multiple times that Wasps deserved the win, regardless of the referee. However, the referee made some horrific calls that had a big outcome on the game. Wasps played great and definitely should have won.
From looking at your profile, you're English so you obviously haven't watched every single game Leinster has played this year (not trying to be sarcastic or ****, just like I haven't watched every Wasp game this season). Cullen's goal for this game was clearly to win but, more importantly, ensure that the players who will be starting during the 6N period got adequate rest as they will be heavily relied on to give us as much points as possible so we can top the league and give us a better European pool for next year.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone broke down every incorrect decision that Reynaul (the ref) made yesterday and how that impacted on the match. If you read my earlier post, you would have seen that at the start of the 2nd half with the score 18-10 to Wasps, they knocked on in their 22 from the restart which wasn't picked up and scored a try 60-90 seconds later. You cannot argue that that is a massive momentum swing

 

[Tony Manx]

I see another ref getting slaughtered because of the performance of a team or short comings in it's selection!!!

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Ruddock, Fitz and Kirchner were all out of position and it effected the team cohesion all across the park
Fitz is wasted at 13, he can't use his feet or hands as effectively than when at 12 and he doesn't defend there as well either. 13 and 12 are different positions.

Have you watched Leinster play over the last 2-3 years? Fitz has primarily played at 13 and the Canada game was the first time he was given a decent run out at 12 (since then he's been at 12 ofc). The last time he got a decent amount of game time at 12 was back in 08/09.
Fitz was insane at 13 (both defensively and offensively) and definitely should have started at 13 for Ireland over Payne. He won man of the match last year against Wasps in Rd 6 when at 13 as he was a freak in defense. If anything Fitz is out of position at 12 considering how well he's been at 13, but as usual, most rugby fans' memories are short lived and can't look at the bigger picture when assessing players, teams, strategies etc etc.

He was unbelievable against Ulster last year:
https://youtu.be/GcNnbXbAHJY?t=1h27m3s

There are so many highlights of his play at 13 (both in this game and throughout that season) but if you play from 1h 27 mins 3 seconds, you can see how devastating he can be at 13.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Have you watched Leinster play over the last 2-3 years? Fitz has primarily played at 13 and the Canada game was the first time he was given a decent run out at 12 (since then he's been at 12 ofc). The last time he got a decent amount of game time at 12 was back in 08/09.
Fitz was insane at 13 (both defensively and offensively) and definitely should have started at 13 for Ireland over Payne. He won man of the match last year against Wasps in Rd 6 when at 13 as he was a freak in defense. If anything Fitz is out of position at 12 considering how well he's been at 13, but as usual, most rugby fans' memories are short lived and can't look at the bigger picture when assessing players, teams, strategies etc etc.

He was unbelievable against Ulster last year:
https://youtu.be/GcNnbXbAHJY?t=1h27m3s

There are so many highlights of his play at 13 (both in this game and throughout that season) but if you play from 1h 27 mins 3 seconds, you can see how devastating he can be at 13.

Te'o or D'Arcy at 12 in those games? I can't see on the phone but it's safe to assume. Those lads share the roles of 12 and 13, BOD and D'Arce did it throughout their careers and Te'o does it too. Reid is an out and out 12, Fitz has never played a complete 13 role because he hasn't the skillset, he doesn't throw good, wide passes under pressure, he can't run the defence from 13 as effectively as he needs to, his quick feet are wasted in a position where beating the man on the outside is what is usually needed and his kicking isn't intelligent enough. Reid and Fitz is flawed, D'Arcy made up for Fitz' defensive shortcomings last year and Fitz returned the favour in attack. He's playing the best rugby since '09 this year and it's because he's playing a natural 12 role rather than a hybrid. This all adds to my original point that Leinster gave up their advantage of having more internationals by not using them correctly.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Te'o or D'Arcy at 12 in those games? I can't see on the phone but it's safe to assume. Those lads share the roles of 12 and 13, BOD and D'Arce did it throughout their careers and Te'o does it too. Reid is an out and out 12, Fitz has never played a complete 13 role because he hasn't the skillset, he doesn't throw good, wide passes under pressure, he can't run the defence from 13 as effectively as he needs to, his quick feet are wasted in a position where beating the man on the outside is what is usually needed and his kicking isn't intelligent enough. Reid and Fitz is flawed, D'Arcy made up for Fitz' defensive shortcomings last year and Fitz returned the favour in attack. He's playing the best rugby since '09 this year and it's because he's playing a natural 12 role rather than a hybrid. This all adds to my original point that Leinster gave up their advantage of having more internationals by not using them correctly.

I disagree 100%, bar "Reid and Fitz is flawed" which is kind of an understatement considering Reid is an average Pro 12 player at best. Fitz is a 13 without a doubt. Rewatch the games he played at 13 last year and you'll see how much of a freak he was.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Fair enough, I think he's a superb 12 and has shown fantastic consistency like we haven't seen from him in years there and I'd like to see him inside Henshaw for the 6nations and although he had very good games at 13 I think he's easier for the opposition to contain and exploit in that position. It's all opinion though as we could have no conclusive stats, he is certainly more valuable to Leinster at 12 than 13 at the moment though.