Canada vs. Italy (15/06/2012 7:00 p.m. EDT)

[Canucks]

Score 25-16 for Italy. 1 try each, the rest on penalties.

Well that sucked. Canada should not be happy with their performance. If you want to move up a level you have to play rugby with a semblance of organisation and discipline.

Crowd was awesome.
Front row got dominated.
Second row did not exist. Sinclair is much more effective at N8.
Ardron/Otoole made a play or two. Carpenter did not exist.
Effectively the entire forward pack got owned today. Scrums were crap (we won 3), lineouts were crap at points, breakpoints were an adventure. Very frustrating game to watch because you could see Italy take advantage of inexperience and lack of effeciency.

We need to sort N9. White was ok for parts than bombed it at the end. Fairhurst was equally bad. We have no link between forwards and backs.

For backs we have Evans who made how many tackles tonight, yet spent very little time with ball in hand. Even worst off, our 3 most dynamic offensive weapons (DTH, Mackenzie and Trainor) hardly got a touch. Those three by themselves are capable of destroying backlines but there was no organisation in the attack. How do you not give your best player the ball until you start losing?

Canada has fixed it's lack of pace and conditioning, fixed it's porous defense, now it needs to fix it's attack. Without an organised attack were just Georgia with a crappy scrum.

 

[Sker]

Dammit I had high hopes for Canada, I'm pretty sure you guys will sort it out though.

 

[dudeabides]

I was pulling for them too, but I think my team's got an uphill battle on their hands next weekend by recent comparison.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

I was pulling for them too, but I think my team's got an uphill battle on their hands next weekend by recent comparison.

I watched this from Jamaica where I am currently working and I must say Canada did not exploit opportunities where they had them. DTH, Mackenzie and Trainor were under utilized and our backs should of with good ball ripped them apart. It was close and some will be happy with thius result; however, I would be disappointed if i was us.

 

[psychic duck]

Score 25-16 for Italy. 1 try each, the rest on penalties.

Well that sucked. Canada should not be happy with their performance. If you want to move up a level you have to play rugby with a semblance of organisation and discipline.

Crowd was awesome.
Front row got dominated.
Second row did not exist. Sinclair is much more effective at N8.
Ardron/Otoole made a play or two. Carpenter did not exist.
Effectively the entire forward pack got owned today. Scrums were crap (we won 3), lineouts were crap at points, breakpoints were an adventure. Very frustrating game to watch because you could see Italy take advantage of inexperience and lack of effeciency.

We need to sort N9. White was ok for parts than bombed it at the end. Fairhurst was equally bad. We have no link between forwards and backs.

For backs we have Evans who made how many tackles tonight, yet spent very little time with ball in hand. Even worst off, our 3 most dynamic offensive weapons (DTH, Mackenzie and Trainor) hardly got a touch. Those three by themselves are capable of destroying backlines but there was no organisation in the attack. How do you not give your best player the ball until you start losing?

Canada has fixed it's lack of pace and conditioning, fixed it's porous defense, now it needs to fix it's attack. Without an organised attack were just Georgia with a crappy scrum.

I think you are being very harsh on Canada there

the reason why they lost is quite purely because of the scrum, they couldn't win their own scrums and were conceding a penalty every time Italy had one, this is where most of Italy's points came from, and also their try was also from forward dominance with a big maul, the lineout wasn't good with Pletch thorwing in and towards the end of the game the breakdown struggled despite Canada getting quick ball at the start

other than that, Canada were as good or better than Italy, the Azzurri's backs were crap, they had great forward momentum delivered to them by the forwards and yet still struggled and often dropped the ball, Canada's backs looked more impressive to me

also you are harsh on Carpenter, I thought he did decently, especially considering he was often tidying up from a mess of a platform set up by the front five

the scrum and the driving forwards pack is the exact same reason as to why Canada lost to Georgia in 2010 (although the fly half Braid also had a poor game that day as well), we said before that if Canada could negotiate the scrum then they were better than Italy, unfortunately they couldn't negotiate it and weren't even close to doing so

 

[LittleGuy]

Some thoughts of mine that I had, note I saw the game live and at points was super close and at times a little far away from the action.....crowd was 12,200 and was in a great mood for the game. I would say split was 97-3 or maybe even higher supporting Canada, with many of the Italian fans there for Barbieri.

1) Italians are well coached and went into the break and developed a game plan that played to their strengths. The penalty that made it only 13-9 for Canada at the break was a turning point, if Italy had gone into half time down 7 I think the opening parts of the next half would have played out differently. Castrogiavanni was immense, I thought he should have been MOTM, which actually went to Burton.

2) Our scrum was beyond awful, the Buydens injury certainly didn't help matters as Dolezel didn't play very well. Tieddemann should have been on earlier for Pletch. Handling errors were magnified by Italian dominance in this area.

3) Defensively lineout Canada did OK, actually had a couple of steals early, certainly held our own in what I thought would be an Italian strength. Although as an attacking platform it was ineffective although we mainly retained our own throws.

4) I wonder how Canada would have done with "the Maestro" Ander Monro in at #10, Evans was not as effective this week as he was the week before against the States, although he was getting some bad passes from White(and others), who struggled massively in the 2nd half, his Edness should have been on earlier, although he wasn't spectacular himself, he seemed to calm things down and Canada were attacking well in the final 7-8 minutes.

5) Goal Kicking was good, both guys missed one but for Pritch it was a tough one, and Burton had a good game in this department, neither player at fault here, Pritchard moves into 2nd all time on the Canadian points list with his tally today.

6) Discipline seemed to come apart at the end, O'Toole was actually booed by the crowd for a dive he took after getting shoved, and Marshall was perfectly frankly, acting like a total asshole at the end of the game. My Dad said on TV it looked even worse and really took away from what had been a cracking atmosphere, everyone was lucky no cards were handed out. Marshall cost us in the Japan game by acting like this, he needs to keep his composure when Canada are losing but not out of comeback distance.

I'll try and get some photos up, I have a few of some lineout's that were near to me and a good one of Our Ed, I also have a pile of the Italians warming up.

Edit: I agree with you Psychic, I didn't think Carpenter was that bad, he actually nearly created a try with a sneaky grubber kick. The scrum and discipline were where Canada lost this game along with Burton bringing his kicking boots.

Here is a highlight package, from BCRugbyNews, Rugby Canada will probably have one up in a couple of days, BCRN, hates to show penalty kicks in his highlight packaages so I'll get the official one up as soon as I can because I feel some of the more difficult penalties should be shown.



Our Ed behind a lineout click for better size.

 

[psychic duck]

Agree with most of that Little Guy, although Burton had a good game off the kicking tee, he did nothing else worthy of being man of the match, I seem to remember him passing the ball into touch on one occasion and Rizzo/Castro got him most of those penalties in the first place, and his tactical kicking wasn't that special, still Italy will be glad he had a good day goal kicking considering the match they lost against England, and a bad kicking day would have kept Canada much more in the match

I don't think Monro at 10 would have changed the result, the scrum was getting annihilated in a big way, there would have been nothing he could have done

the Italians meanwhile need to continue to be concerned about their backs, they didn't look too threatening despite the front foot ball they received, I think Italy are best when they play a game plan which suits their strengths as when they attempt to go out wide the backs are just not good enough and they end up going backwards or dropping the ball

 

[LittleGuy]

I agree on the Italian backs Psychic, I think the only one that threatened the Canadian defence was Benvenutti, Tebaldi was awful at #9. Burton was very average from open play.

The scoreline for those wondering....

Italy:

Try: D'Apice
Conversion: Burton
Penalties: Burton 6(7)

Canada:

Try: Trainor
Conversion: Pritchard
Penalties: Pritchard 3(4)
Drop Goals: Evans 0(1)

 

[Canucks]

Some thoughts of mine that I had, note I saw the game live and at points was super close and at times a little far away from the action.....crowd was 12,200 and was in a great mood for the game. I would say split was 97-3 or maybe even higher supporting Canada, with many of the Italian fans there for Barbieri.

1) Italians are well coached and went into the break and developed a game plan that played to their strengths. The penalty that made it only 13-9 for Canada at the break was a turning point, if Italy had gone into half time down 7 I think the opening parts of the next half would have played out differently. Castrogiavanni was immense, I thought he should have been MOTM, which actually went to Burton.

2) Our scrum was beyond awful, the Buydens injury certainly didn't help matters as Dolezel didn't play very well. Tieddemann should have been on earlier for Pletch. Handling errors were magnified by Italian dominance in this area.

3) Defensively lineout Canada did OK, actually had a couple of steals early, certainly held our own in what I thought would be an Italian strength. Although as an attacking platform it was ineffective although we mainly retained our own throws.

4) I wonder how Canada would have done with "the Maestro" Ander Monro in at #10, Evans was not as effective this week as he was the week before against the States, although he was getting some bad passes from White(and others), who struggled massively in the 2nd half, his Edness should have been on earlier, although he wasn't spectacular himself, he seemed to calm things down and Canada were attacking well in the final 7-8 minutes.

5) Goal Kicking was good, both guys missed one but for Pritch it was a tough one, and Burton had a good game in this department, neither player at fault here, Pritchard moves into 2nd all time on the Canadian points list with his tally today.

6) Discipline seemed to come apart at the end, O'Toole was actually booed by the crowd for a dive he took after getting shoved, and Marshall was perfectly frankly, acting like a total asshole at the end of the game. My Dad said on TV it looked even worse and really took away from what had been a cracking atmosphere, everyone was lucky no cards were handed out. Marshall cost us in the Japan game by acting like this, he needs to keep his composure when Canada are losing but not out of comeback distance.

I'll try and get some photos up, I have a few of some lineout's that were near to me and a good one of Our Ed, I also have a pile of the Italians warming up.

Edit: I agree with you Psychic, I didn't think Carpenter was that bad, he actually nearly created a try with a sneaky grubber kick. The scrum and discipline were where Canada lost this game along with Burton bringing his kicking boots.

Here is a highlight package, from BCRugbyNews, Rugby Canada will probably have one up in a couple of days, BCRN, hates to show penalty kicks in his highlight packaages so I'll get the official one up as soon as I can because I feel some of the more difficult penalties should be shown.



Our Ed behind a lineout click for better size.

I'm really glad to see Carpenter has some fans here. I like him as well and I should have elaborated on what I meant for Carpenter as my short sentence made it seem like I felt he was not adequate. He essentially did not exist the capacity Canada needs him to but through no fault of his own.

When Canada gets moving forward it normally comes from great plays by either Carpenter or Kleeberger. Both are very underrated runners and both pick there spots well. When both are playing (or O'toole isn't dogging it) they share the responsibilties and are a key in gaining momentum for Canada. With Kleeberger out, Sinclair stuck at 2nd row, O'Toole dogging it, a lot of pressure is on Carpenter. Thus it is essentail to start our strongest possible flankers so that he can play his essential ball carrier role.

We started O'Toole and Ardron. That coupled with our tight 5 getting massacred and out rucked made it next to impossible for Carpenter to do what we needed from him and cover our other deficiencies, very savvy kicks aside. As well, while I think versatility is key, it may be time to move Sinclair to flanker. Second row requires a lot of effort every scrum and even more when you are a little smaller than the average second row. Watching Sinclair with the Irish, you can see how effective he can be in a loosie roll. He's good enough to start at N8 for the Stormers.


I'm certain that both Fairhurst and White will calm things down but why isn't Jamie Mackenzie being given a game. He is our only professional scrum half but doesn't get an opportunity?

It's possible Munro could have helped but we've had this problem with our backs since Japan game. For the first time in Canada's history we have a backline that can compete with anyones. Monro, Evans, Trainor, Van Der Merwe, Mackenzie, Pritchard should be able to eat Italy alive like they ate our scrum alive. However for some reason Canada cannot give them consistent ball moving forward. As well, there is very little organisation in the backline for the attack. Given to how it was previously though, I'd rather have this seeing as we used to not be able to defend worth anything.

I still stand by my statement that Canada should not be happy with this game. They were grossly inadequate in the scrum, go beat at the breakdown and did not use their best weapon effectively. That being said, they could have still won and this game is a valuable learning experience. Rather learn the lessons now than in 4 years at a world cup. I think our errors will get fixed by experience and I look forward to the day when this team starts scalping some tier 1 teams.

Little guy, crowd was great. You guys did a great job. What was the final attendance?

 

[LittleGuy]

Attendance ended up being 12,200, and was an amazing crowd, great mix of young and older fans, as well as rugby enthusiasts and people just staring to get into the game. I think they were hoping for more Italian support to come out, but the Italian fans that did show up were passionate and were fun(unlike many Italo-Canadian soccer fans), my two fans of the game were two little old Italian ladies who were wearing hats where one half was a cowboy hat with a Canadian flag while the other hat switched into a traditonal Italian hat with the Italian colours on it, they had both flags down at the game and were a huge hit with the crowd.

I think that's a good evalutaion of what happened to Carpenter on Friday night Canucks, and totally agreed on O'Toole, what is going on with him, I don't think I've seen him have an effective game since Tonga vs Canada. At this poitn I wouldn't mind seeing Dala get a start ahead of him. Dala seemed to spark a little more life into Canada we he came on, and O'Toole's dive after getting a light shove was ridiculous and embarrasiing for the crowd.

I am a little dissapointed as well as I think Canada if they'd stuck to their game plan could have won, but they got sucked in by the Italians into playing the Azzurri game. Crowley pretty much said the same thing in his post match press conference. I am pretty shocked Mackenzie hasn't gotten into a game as well, I figured last week against the States would have been a great time for him to get some game action, I would think Ed will be staring against Georgia, perhaps Jamie can back him up. I'll also mention a few positives that I took from the game, to balance our collective dissapointment.

Trainor is really establishing himself as a solid player, was effective in attack and defence definately securing a starting role in the backline. Pritchard continues to play well at 32 years of age, his goalkicking is essential and is adding some steady hands in defence. He is the vice-captain on the tour whch I didn't mention earlier.

The open play defence was really strong and Canada had a fantastic goal line stand in the first half, the work Clive Griffiths has done for Canada in this capacity can't be quantified, as I said last year he deserves a medal for it!!!

The lineout defensively is improving, last year Canada gave up on contesting many throws as it was so poor, in this game they had a a couple of steals, and Italy wasn't able to use it as an attacking platform as much as they were scrums and mauls.

O'Toole, Buydens and Sinclair all got a little banged up so not sure how well they will be for the Georgia game, we could be a little thin up front which worries me as even 3rd choice Georgian forwards are fairly effective come scrum time. I'll keep an eye out on twitter and rugby canada updates if any of them are out of action although I'm expecting Buydens won't be available.

 

[Canucks]

Attendance ended up being 12,200, and was an amazing crowd, great mix of young and older fans, as well as rugby enthusiasts and people just staring to get into the game. I think they were hoping for more Italian support to come out, but the Italian fans that did show up were passionate and were fun(unlike many Italo-Canadian soccer fans), my two fans of the game were two little old Italian ladies who were wearing hats where one half was a cowboy hat with a Canadian flag while the other hat switched into a traditonal Italian hat with the Italian colours on it, they had both flags down at the game and were a huge hit with the crowd.

I think that's a good evalutaion of what happened to Carpenter on Friday night Canucks, and totally agreed on O'Toole, what is going on with him, I don't think I've seen him have an effective game since Tonga vs Canada. At this poitn I wouldn't mind seeing Dala get a start ahead of him. Dala seemed to spark a little more life into Canada we he came on, and O'Toole's dive after getting a light shove was ridiculous and embarrasiing for the crowd.

I am a little dissapointed as well as I think Canada if they'd stuck to their game plan could have won, but they got sucked in by the Italians into playing the Azzurri game. Crowley pretty much said the same thing in his post match press conference. I am pretty shocked Mackenzie hasn't gotten into a game as well, I figured last week against the States would have been a great time for him to get some game action, I would think Ed will be staring against Georgia, perhaps Jamie can back him up. I'll also mention a few positives that I took from the game, to balance our collective dissapointment.

Trainor is really establishing himself as a solid player, was effective in attack and defence definately securing a starting role in the backline. Pritchard continues to play well at 32 years of age, his goalkicking is essential and is adding some steady hands in defence. He is the vice-captain on the tour whch I didn't mention earlier.

The open play defence was really strong and Canada had a fantastic goal line stand in the first half, the work Clive Griffiths has done for Canada in this capacity can't be quantified, as I said last year he deserves a medal for it!!!

The lineout defensively is improving, last year Canada gave up on contesting many throws as it was so poor, in this game they had a a couple of steals, and Italy wasn't able to use it as an attacking platform as much as they were scrums and mauls.

O'Toole, Buydens and Sinclair all got a little banged up so not sure how well they will be for the Georgia game, we could be a little thin up front which worries me as even 3rd choice Georgian forwards are fairly effective come scrum time. I'll keep an eye out on twitter and rugby canada updates if any of them are out of action although I'm expecting Buydens won't be available.

So I'm off the hook about Carpenter?


It would not suprise me if O'Toole has a shoulder or groin injury that he didn't heal properly. I agree on Dala, would have been a big help today as he is very mobile and would have been a huge ease on Carpenter. Sinclair needs an opportunity, he can become a world class loose forward but Canada does not play him there. The Stormers even start him at N8.

Trainor looks like he's going to be a bit of a monster. Both him and Mackenzie made a lot of tackles and throughout the contest you could see that both just wanted to run some decent ball so they could embarrass their opposing numbers. I want to hug Clive Griffiths. Can you remember back when Canada had a porous back line that could not defend for it's life? A back line that made the Argentina Jaguars look like the All Blacks? Gone now, stifling defense. Just lacking a bit of discipline but that is an experience thing and should improve itself.

Just a shame as this Italy game was a missed opportunity. Hopefully it'll all come together in about 4 years time.

 

[CDN_Rugby]

No kidding about Sinclair.

It seemed like an alright idea during the WC (maybe having Cudmore there took the heat off him) but it's now painfully obvious that Sinclair needs to be a full time loosie. Would anyone object to having Carpenter play flanker and have Jebb starting at 8? Given that Carpenter is undersized to be an international #8, having Jebb at the back of the scrum might be more useful. Also, interesting observations about O'Toole. I'd agree that he doesn't at all seem like the same player he was last summer. For the Georgia game, I'd suspect that he'll be starting on the bench; I wasn't at all impressed by him against Italy.

Despite missing a golden opportunity, this team has come pretty far. If only our current backline was playing in front of the tight forwards we had from 1999-2007 we could play a competitive game with any home nations side.