British & Irish Lions Back Row

[dullonien]

If SOB is going to make the starting IV then he's either going to have to prove he is the best "7" in the squad, which in my opinion with the likes of Tipuric, Warburton and Robshaw is going to difficult, or he needs to get some game time at 6/8. The warm up games are what will determine the Backrow combination in my opinion as consistency has been an issue for all potential starters. At the moment SOB looks like a good bench option and what a bench option that would be!

Alot of pundits have started both Warburton and Tipuric in there team but I still think that combination is relatively untested. In my opinion if your going to start both of them, you need a ball carrier like SOB at 8.

The thing is, with Ferris out and Lydiate not back yet, all our options at 6 currently play somewhere else in the back row. SOB and Robshaw at 7 for club/province and country, Wood at 7 for club, 8 for country, and Warburton at 7.

Regarding the backrow, it must be tempting to give that Welsh backrow another run-out. It might have only been one game, but it was the best collective backrow display I've seen in a long, long time. If they could re-produce that display again behind what is certainly going to be a dominant tight 5 (at least in the scrums), then it could go a long way to winning a test.

I've re-watched the Wales v England game twice now, and I still cannot get over how impressive all three were. A simply phenomenal performance from the three of them.

 

[Rich Taff]

Ah, was wondering if anyone had remembered Lydiate. Sounds daft, but if anything, we've too many 'quality' flankers at the moment (if Lydiate come back as good as he was). It's a headache to have, but what a headache!

 

[Peat]

You don't think there was a distinct slowness and lack of dynamism to his movements compared to every other player? That he looked to be sprinting hard yet going backwards?

And he's not the first English forward back. Lawes got there first despite looking like he was jogging in comparison to Robshaw's sprint, Croft was there before as well and so was nearly Hartley.

What it looked like to me, was that he plodded round that try scoring play at a pedestrian pace, not knowing exactly what he was doing and was just a spectator to it.

Not in a way I'm worried about, no. Of course Warburton makes him look slow there. By the time Robshaw has turned around and bumped into Danny Care, Warburton's been accelerating for 6-7 yards. Of course he's not going to look quick. Both Robshaw and Lawes break into jogs after about 6-7 yards themselves. Maybe you'd consider that lazy, fine. Even the fittest player will knacker himself out if he sprints after everything and as neither man is going to catch Warburton, they just jog. They are confident that at that speed, if someone tackles Warburton, they will be there in time to reform the defensive line, which is correct. Both men are there before any Welsh player other than Bradley Davies. Are you going to criticise Justin Tipuric who is jogging so slow he doesn't even catch up with Adam Jones at all for a good few strides as the break is made? Plenty of players are relying on their team mates to do the necessary there rather than going flat out on both sides.

And I reckon he's first there with Lawes, if you disagree fine, not particularly material imo, they certainly don't hand out "Failure" badges for being slower than Tom Croft and Robshaw is there in time to reset the defensive line which was the England team's first priority. No matter how minutely I look at that, I do not worry about Robshaw's fitness and work rate.

 

[tompaton]

The thing is, with Ferris out and Lydiate not back yet, all our options at 6 currently play somewhere else in the back row. SOB and Robshaw at 7 for club/province and country, Wood at 7 for club, 8 for country, and Warburton at 7.

Regarding the backrow, it must be tempting to give that Welsh backrow another run-out. It might have only been one game, but it was the best collective backrow display I've seen in a long, long time. If they could re-produce that display again behind what is certainly going to be a dominant tight 5 (at least in the scrums), then it could go a long way to winning a test.

I've re-watched the Wales v England game twice now, and I still cannot get over how impressive all three were. A simply phenomenal performance from the three of them.

I'm in total agreement. Every time he made a tackle, Warburton was up on his feet being a pest and slowing it right down. I wish that Wales would give him the license to carry more often as I feel he is such a dynamic ball carrier. It seems that whenever he plays with Ryan Jones, they take that responsibility away from him but when he's with Tipuric or Lydiate he assumes the role more.

I reckon pair Tips and Warbs together again and then choose between Faletau and O'Brien at number 8. Someone who can carry hard and put players in space. Allow Warburton to be the brute of the back-row with his physical tackling and hard carrying. Let Warbs and Tips share breakdown duties. Allow Tipuric to combine with the backs. And if you go with O'Brien, let him do what he does best and that is get his hands on the ball and carry hard. That said the unseen work Faletau does is amazing and could be the tipping point to landing the jersey. Either way it's a perfect balance.

 

[irelandfan123]

I miss Ferris, selection was sooo much easier when he was there...
Thinking Kelly Brown is not getting to much coverage here, maybe because he is scottish but he was captian and the most effective poacher of the six nations while playing out of position.
Thinking that my Backrow would be fairly balanced
6. O'Brien - Tackle and carry machine made 20 tackles during the Wales match the start of the season
7. Brown- great poacher, decent lineout option and leader
8. Fatetua- Fantastic close quarters runner with good workrate + not afraid to do the dirty stuff

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I've been singing Kelly Brown's praises all tournament
I don't think he'd make the test side, purely due to the strength of the competition/the success of their sides - however could see him starting for the "dirt trackers" and maybe forcing his way on the bench.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I'm in total agreement. Every time he made a tackle, Warburton was up on his feet being a pest and slowing it right down. I wish that Wales would give him the license to carry more often as I feel he is such a dynamic ball carrier. It seems that whenever he plays with Ryan Jones, they take that responsibility away from him but when he's with Tipuric or Lydiate he assumes the role more.

I reckon pair Tips and Warbs together again and then choose between Faletau and O'Brien at number 8. Someone who can carry hard and put players in space. Allow Warburton to be the brute of the back-row with his physical tackling and hard carrying. Let Warbs and Tips share breakdown duties. Allow Tipuric to combine with the backs. And if you go with O'Brien, let him do what he does best and that is get his hands on the ball and carry hard. That said the unseen work Faletau does is amazing and could be the tipping point to landing the jersey. Either way it's a perfect balance.

Right, I know the Welsh are on a bit of a high from their convincing win over England, but saying the back row would be the whole Wales back row after 1 game is ok... but we've had mentions of the Welsh back 3 for the Lions already and I won't be surprised if someone wants the whole Welsh front row.

Why don't we just have the bloody Welsh team for the Lions.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Right, I know the Welsh are on a bit of a high from their convincing win over England, but saying the back row would be the whole Wales back row after 1 game is ok... but we've had mentions of the Welsh back 3 for the Lions already and I won't be surprised if someone wants the whole Welsh front row.

Why don't we just have the bloody Welsh team for the Lions.

Maybe because of the Welsh record against SH opposition?

 

[dullonien]

Right, I know the Welsh are on a bit of a high from their convincing win over England, but saying the back row would be the whole Wales back row after 1 game is ok... but we've had mentions of the Welsh back 3 for the Lions already and I won't be surprised if someone wants the whole Welsh front row.

Why don't we just have the bloody Welsh team for the Lions.

That performance changes a lot, that's the problem. It's brought into question the quality of some of the English players, who man for man, right across the field were comprehensively outplayed. Couple that with the implosion of the Irish performances over the 6 nations, and only an OK showing from Scotland (but nothing to really write home about), and it becomes quite easy to select Welsh players.

Outside of the Welsh squad, only SOB, Parling, Beattie, Borwn and Scott really enhanced their reputations. A number more had good games in isolation, but faltered along the way (BOD, Healy, Hogg, Laidlaw etc.), or succumbed to injury (Zebo, Morgan); or in regards to England players stumbled at the final hurdle (Robshaw, Launchbury, Wood, Farrell, Tuilagi, Youngs etc.); and quite a few saw their standings fall (Cole, Heaslip), or even plummet (Best).

And yet, the 8 game losing streak, where we lost to Aus on so many occasions has to come into account as well.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

That performance changes a lot, that's the problem. It's brought into question the quality of some of the English players

Certainly, but in my opinion this mostly pertains to the guys who were unlikely to tour anyway:

Marler now has no chance but I don't see what's changed, his scrummaging has never been good enough, and his loose/tight work nowhere near makes up for it. Vunipola has done his chances no harm imo. Cole was, as ever, the best part of a weak front row and I don't believe his reputation has been damaged, except that Adam Jones is clearly now in pole position. Still, who are you going to pick ahead of Cole for the bench spot? Youngs is an interesting one, and a hard call for Gatland. But with his sketchy set-piece play, I suppose the chances have swung against him To me, Parling was one of the best locks on the pitch, whilst Joe to me just looked tired and off the pace. Did that last game really destroy the standing these guys have been building over the last 6 games however? Back-row... well, we know we lacked a good carrier like Morgan, and Wood is not an 8. But you'd still be a bit mad to claim that, on balance, Warburton and Tipuric had BETTER tournaments than Wood and Robshaw respectively. Elsewhere, have we found out anything we didn't already know about the centres and the halfbacks? I suppose we've been disappointed with the (lack of) vision sometimes shown by Barritt and Tuilagi, which does count for something. But I don't think many 12's or 13's really shone this tournament, except perhaps Luke Marshall. Twelvetrees has not had enough time to build a case. We already knew Youngs is **** under pressure, although you could say the same about many 9's out there. But Youngs and Care still offer the only real sniping threat at 9. Most of us already knew Farrell was not the 99% goal-kicker the media and casual fans believe, and I think he was one of our most committed players against Wales. Again, We already knew that Goode is shite, and that Ashton's chance of touring has been growing steadily lower for sometime based on his inability to do anything at all. Brown? Hard to mark a guy playing out of position, but even based on his wing performances, I'd put him as the third full-back in the queue, even if we don't take 3. I'd be very surprised, in sum, if Gatland has changed his opinion on any except the more marginal calls.

That performance changes a lot, that's the problem. It's brought into question the quality of some of the English players, who man for man, right across the field were comprehensively outplayed. Couple that with the implosion of the Irish performances over the 6 nations, and only an OK showing from Scotland (but nothing to really write home about), and it becomes quite easy to select Welsh players.

Outside of the Welsh squad, only SOB, Parling, Beattie, Borwn and Scott really enhanced their reputations. A number more had good games in isolation, but faltered along the way (BOD, Healy, Hogg, Laidlaw etc.), or succumbed to injury (Zebo, Morgan); or in regards to England players stumbled at the final hurdle (Robshaw, Launchbury, Wood, Farrell, Tuilagi, Youngs etc.); and quite a few saw their standings fall (Cole, Heaslip), or even plummet (Best).

And yet, the 8 game losing streak, where we lost to Aus on so many occasions has to come into account as well.

Well here's the thing. Naturally after the championship win, the Welsh boys have greatly improved their 'current account balance', and by virtue of this you can reasonably expect a fairly large percentage of people's Lions choices to be of Welsh players. ...But to be honest, one can't help but notice that even when Wales were bang in the middle of that 8 game losing streak, many of the Welsh guys on the forum were still picking a far higher than average percentage of their own players to tour . We all do that a bit.

But in other words, there's a danger that this victory will become an all-to easy justification for picking a high number of Welsh players for the tour now, even though the same logic did not seem to apply when Wales were doing badly.

Don't get me wrong, my Lions touring party would be Wales-heavy - but I do think its possible to overemphasise the extent to which the weekends happenings changed everything.

 

[Aedaphon]

That performance changes a lot, that's the problem. It's brought into question the quality of some of the English players, who man for man, right across the field were comprehensively outplayed. Couple that with the implosion of the Irish performances over the 6 nations, and only an OK showing from Scotland (but nothing to really write home about), and it becomes quite easy to select Welsh players.

Outside of the Welsh squad, only SOB, Parling, Beattie, Borwn and Scott really enhanced their reputations. A number more had good games in isolation, but faltered along the way (BOD, Healy, Hogg, Laidlaw etc.), or succumbed to injury (Zebo, Morgan); or in regards to England players stumbled at the final hurdle (Robshaw, Launchbury, Wood, Farrell, Tuilagi, Youngs etc.); and quite a few saw their standings fall (Cole, Heaslip), or even plummet (Best).

And yet, the 8 game losing streak, where we lost to Aus on so many occasions has to come into account as well.

Every side has it's better and worse games as a squad. While I completely agree that the Welsh side has been on the rise over the course of the 6 Nations, the English losing to a class Welsh side last week does not call into question the quality of each individual player any more than an 8 match losing streak.

The Lions is a completely different ball park when it comes to handling selections because Gatland is building an entirely new squad whose morale and momentum are only loosely connected to each of the individual home nations' past games. Welsh players, especially Jones, Warburton and Tipuric imo, have put their hands up as tourists, but the team dynamic of the Welsh side will not be carried through unless every single Welsh player is selected (which would be a crap idea, given the pool of players available to the Lions).

 

[Thingimubob]

Certainly, but in my opinion this mostly pertains to the guys who were unlikely to tour anyway:

Marler now has no chance but I don't see what's changed, his scrummaging has never been good enough, and his loose/tight work nowhere near makes up for it. Vunipola has done his chances no harm imo. Cole was, as ever, the best part of a weak front row and I don't believe his reputation has been damaged, except that Adam Jones is clearly now in pole position. Still, who are you going to pick ahead of Cole for the bench spot? Youngs is an interesting one, and a hard call for Gatland. But with his sketchy set-piece play, I suppose the chances have swung against him To me, Parling was one of the best locks on the pitch, whilst Joe to me just looked tired and off the pace. Did that last game really destroy the standing these guys have been building over the last 6 games however? Back-row... well, we know we lacked a good carrier like Morgan, and Wood is not an 8. But you'd still be a bit mad to claim that, on balance, Warburton and Tipuric had BETTER tournaments than Wood and Robshaw respectively. Elsewhere, have we found out anything we didn't already know about the centres and the halfbacks? I suppose we've been disappointed with the (lack of) vision sometimes shown by Barritt and Tuilagi, which does count for something. But I don't think many 12's or 13's really shone this tournament, except perhaps Luke Marshall. Twelvetrees has not had enough time to build a case. We already knew Youngs is **** under pressure, although you could say the same about many 9's out there. But Youngs and Care still offer the only real sniping threat at 9. Most of us already knew Farrell was not the 99% goal-kicker the media and casual fans believe, and I think he was one of our most committed players against Wales. Again, We already knew that Goode is shite, and that Ashton's chance of touring has been growing steadily lower for sometime based on his inability to do anything at all. Brown? Hard to mark a guy playing out of position, but even based on his wing performances, I'd put him as the third full-back in the queue, even if we don't take 3. I'd be very surprised, in sum, if Gatland has changed his opinion on any except the more marginal calls.




Well here's the thing. Naturally after the championship win, the Welsh boys have greatly improved their 'current account balance', and by virtue of this you can reasonably expect a fairly large percentage of people's Lions choices to be of Welsh players. ...But to be honest, one can't help but notice that even when Wales were bang in the middle of that 8 game losing streak, many of the Welsh guys on the forum were still picking a far higher than average percentage of their own players to tour . We all do that a bit.

But in other words, there's a danger that this victory will become an all-to easy justification for picking a high number of Welsh players for the tour now, even though the same logic did not seem to apply when Wales were doing badly.

Don't get me wrong, my Lions touring party would be Wales-heavy - but I do think its possible to overemphasise the extent to which the weekends happenings changed everything.

Not sure I agree with that, thought a lot of Welsh players (one's who weren't injured anyway) certainly lost ground in the Lions race after the Autumn.For example, Warburton went from captaincy favourite to a doubt whether he'd even tour - I'm sure Welsh people stuck with him with the point that he was always gonna bounce back, something he definitely did this 6 Nations, however I still don't think he'll be captain. Other players like Roberts, Jon Davies, Priestland and Jenkins all dropped down the pecking order too. Roberts however, can't help but wonder if his good performance against England coincided with finishing his medical finals.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Not sure I agree with that, thought a lot of Welsh players (one's who weren't injured anyway) certainly lost ground in the Lions race after the Autumn.For example, Warburton went from captaincy favourite to a doubt whether he'd even tour - I'm sure Welsh people stuck with him with the point that he was always gonna bounce back, something he definitely did this 6 Nations, however I still don't think he'll be captain. Other players like Roberts, Jon Davies, Priestland and Jenkins all dropped down the pecking order too. Roberts however, can't help but wonder if his good performance against England coincided with finishing his medical finals.

Your right, I guess my point is simply that its possible to lose without that changing 15-20 of the likely Lions picks. Just as Warburton appears to have bounced back, I would back the guys who already were high on credit, e.g Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, to bounce back and not be immediately taken out of the equation.

 

[dullonien]

Back-row... well, we know we lacked a good carrier like Morgan, and Wood is not an 8. But you'd still be a bit mad to claim that, on balance, Warburton and Tipuric had BETTER tournaments than Wood and Robshaw respectively.

That's a difficult question to answer. Both Tipuric and Warburton basically played 50% of the championship each. Neither were poor at any stage of the tournament. Warburton put in two extremely good performances against Scotland and England, and Tipuric put in an exceptional performance against England and very, very solid displays against France and Italy. I'd argue that both of their best displays were better than any individual display Robshaw and Wood put in. Robshaw was consistently good, and that counts for a lot as well. Wood was unfortunate to have to cover a position he never looked comfortable in, but it still counts against him unfortunately. Overall, not sure, but when it came to head to head, Warburton and Tipuric came out on top, and that could count for a lot.

Well here's the thing. Naturally after the championship win, the Welsh boys have greatly improved their 'current account balance', and by virtue of this you can reasonably expect a fairly large percentage of people's Lions choices to be of Welsh players. ...But to be honest, one can't help but notice that even when Wales were bang in the middle of that 8 game losing streak, many of the Welsh guys on the forum were still picking a far higher than average percentage of their own players to tour . We all do that a bit.

It is always going to happen, but I do think the under performing Welsh players' places were being questioned. Most accepted that Healy was ahead of Gethin, and a lot qustioned Jenkins' place on the plane. No-one was calling for Matthew Rees any more. Warburton's place was questioned, although a lot of Welsh fans were still calling for Tipuric to be involved for Wales and Lions. Faletau was behind Heaslip in most's reckoning. In the backs, no-one wanted Priestland on the Lions tour, whilst Roberts' place was being questioned, although there was a lack of alternatives. North was possibly one given the benefit of the doubt by many, because of a lack of opportunities. Halfpenny was awesome during those 8 defeats, as he has been in pretty much every game he's played for Wales.

 

[Thingimubob]

Your right, I guess my point is simply that its possible to lose without that changing 15-20 of the likely Lions picks. Just as Warburton appears to have bounced back, I would back the guys who already were high on credit, e.g Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, to bounce back and not be immediately taken out of the equation.

Completely agree, huge fan of Robshaw in particular and he'd be in my test starting XV, or at least on the bench, without question. Personally I reckon you combine him at 6 with Tipuric or Warburton at 7, you've got a hell of a partnership on your hands! I'm a fan of Wood too, but not convinced of him as an 8 and barely seen him at 7 to comment on his play there! Very likely he'd be on the plane if I was picking the squad though.

 

[Rich Taff]

I think Warburton will be a fantastic 'future captain'. Whilst the old adage of 'if you're good enough you're old enough' can be claimed, I dont feel that can be said (except in extremely rare cases) of captaincy. There's so much more involved (media requirements etc), that an 'older head' such as Ryan Jones (for example in the 6N), can cope with that and not let it affect their game. (not really sure why I've brought this up on this thread, but seemed to be relevant (in my mind) when I started typing this...)

 

[Jbobo]

I think Warburton will be a fantastic 'future captain'. Whilst the old adage of 'if you're good enough you're old enough' can be claimed, I dont feel that can be said (except in extremely rare cases) of captaincy. There's so much more involved (media requirements etc), that an 'older head' such as Ryan Jones (for example in the 6N), can cope with that and not let it affect their game. (not really sure why I've brought this up on this thread, but seemed to be relevant (in my mind) when I started typing this...)

Yeah i agree, Warburton is the man for the future i think but is not quite up to the job yet. Gatland/Howley will probably either hand the captaincy straight back to Warburton or they will pass it around the numerous older heads in the team like A W Jones, R Jones and Jenkins as they almost always perform under the pressure and all have the right traits. I hope they leave it for a year or two before reinstating Warburton. Having said that, if he captains the lions, then maybe we can assume that he will do so for Wales too following the tour.

 

[Draggs]

Gareth Delve. Solid player, knows the Aussie teams well.

 

[TPenn]

Maybe because of the Welsh record against SH opposition?

Look at it from another angle. The last three fixtures against Australia have been lost by two points, one point and two points. Wales are incredibly close to beating the Aussies. You could make the argument that a Welsh team with a bit of extra help is actually quite a logical choice.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You could make the argument that a Welsh team with a bit of extra help is actually quite a logical choice.

Not really, when you consider England, Ireland and Scotland have all beaten Australia by themselves relatively recently (within the past couple of seasons, anyhow) with England and Scotland winning in Australia.

I'm by no means saying don't play Welsh players due to previous results vs Aus, nor am I saying playing other nations because of their results vs Aus. Just go with the best players regardless.