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Bok squad 2017

John Mitchell is in town for sure! He is looking after his team. There's very little benefit for him to use Pollard with the Currie Cup in context. I doubt his KPI is win the Currie Cup and give Pollard game time. Although it should be if they're all working towards the goal of a strong Bok team.

I completely understand Mitchell's point of view. And it's a pity the Blue Bulls are playing the log leaders, Sharks this coming weekend. If the Blue Bulls were in a better position on the table, I think that Mitchell would have considered it. But with that said, Marnitz Boshoff is becoming better and better at 10 for his old team. Since he's been selected ahead of Tony Jantjies, the Blue Bulls look more dangerous.

Re the squad inclusions: Sort of a step in the right direction. Nkosi is without a doubt a future Bok, lets hope that he gets game time without getting thrown in the deep end. However Rhule not being dropped is worrying to say the least... Surely he has done enough to warrant his express exclusion? Surely he won't start? And if he does where does that leave us for the AB test? I'd take an untested Nkosi over a frequently exposed Rhule any day.

Agreed. Why only Hougaard was dropped seems to me like double standards based on quota. Rhule was even a bigger liability than Rhule, but Hougaard gets ousted.

I hope that Rhule isn't AC new love child that he adopted with the assistance of Madonna and Angelina Jolie...

I agree Flouw is a stop gap solution considering that Cassim is the weak link in the loose trio. We all know why he's staying though.

Yup. And we all know why Duane Vermeulen is being overlooked, even though he's fit and available...

Any changes to the scrum-half position is welcome however that comment might come back to haunt me if Paige starts... I do have a strong suspicion that Paige will continue to warm the bench though since he is very much the quintessential quota passenger.

Yup. Filling the gaps. I would love to see Schreuder get the nod, but I strongly doubt that it would happen.

EDIT: Nearly forgot to mention Mapimpi. This guy has been a frequent performer in a shaky team. How this guy isn't in the mix is baffling. Maybe the Cheetahs have asked to retain him so they can keep things respectable in the Pro14? Besides him Combrinck is once again a glaring omission.

Not only for the Cheetahs, but for the Kings as well, he's been standing out as a stalwart for the team. Also I think we have to mention JP Pietersen. Surely he's better than Rhule ons his worst day???
 
Needs of the many and all that. Sharks are gonna wallop the bulls and we won't learn anything to help the boks. It's a selfish decision, especially when your squad has only won 3 of 8, why should the national coach back the bulls halfback pairing when their own team doesn't trust them to get the job done on short notice as that's what'll happen at the boks in effect if they're selected. Let's hope I'm wrong and Mitchell is doing what's best for his union, would be nice for the bulls to turn their season around but even if he does still don't think it should be of detriment to the boks. If it was my union I would probably see the wisdom in not playing them, like the Sharks with Bosch when he was dropped, waited a week to play him etc.

Been thinking and I'd rather have Chiliboy as backup hooker over Bongi.

@TRF_heineken why not Duane? I thought his surgery ruled him out of the rugby championship?

For me the real quota selection wasn't Rhule staying but Paige, Hougie started before him almost every time, Paige should've been dropped when Schreuder was called up, not Hougaard. Would rather they both went tbh.
 
Needs of the many and all that. Sharks are gonna wallop the bulls and we won't learn anything to help the boks. It's a selfish decision, especially when your squad has only won 3 of 8, why should the national coach back the bulls halfback pairing when their own team doesn't trust them to get the job done on short notice as that's what'll happen at the boks in effect if they're selected. Let's hope I'm wrong and Mitchell is doing what's best for his union, would be nice for the bulls to turn their season around but even if he does still don't think it should be of detriment to the boks. If it was my union I would probably see the wisdom in not playing them, like the Sharks with Bosch when he was dropped, waited a week to play him etc.

I don't think it's the trust thing that's the issue. But more that John Mitchell has now started the restructuring process, and has been trying to get his Currie Cup team to follow his structures for the past 2 weeks. To have a scrumhalf and flyhalf joining the team for just a week, and disrupt all the hard work Mitchell and his coaching team has been doing, would be more detrimental to both the team, and to Pollard and Paige. If they can't get with the program quickly enough, then their confidence on the field won't be as high as it should be. So to save the players and the team frustration, he didn't pick them, and I think that is the correct call.

Been thinking and I'd rather have Chiliboy as backup hooker over Bongi.

Me too. Actually, I'd pick Akker vd Merwe ahead of both these guys.

@TRF_heineken why not Duane? I thought his surgery ruled him out of the rugby championship?

That's what we are hearing. But I have to say, he doesn't look like he's in a spot of bother the few times I've seen him while Toulon was playing and he's in the stands...

When I had a shoulder operation, I had to wear a sling even during rehab, as the pain of just hanging your arm becomes unbearable. But maybe it's just me.

I think AC and Duane have a personal issue with one another.

For me the real quota selection wasn't Rhule staying but Paige, Hougie started before him almost every time, Paige should've been dropped when Schreuder was called up, not Hougaard. Would rather they both went tbh.

Paige hasn't done anything wrong though. Whereas Hougie has been dire (and this coming from a Hougie fan). Paige looked much sharper than Hougie in the Salta test, and against the All Blacks he didn't do much to displease me.
 
So Mitchell has added Pollard to the squad to come off the bench. A happy compromise, he can run on if there's a window and Mitchell gets to keep continuity in the squad. Perhaps bok mgmt put a word in.

I suppose you're right about Paige, just strange that Hougaard was shown little faith but then the question of Rhule still lingers when form is brought into it.
 
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So Mitchell has added Pollard to the squad to come off the bench. A happy compromise, he can run on if there's a window and Mitchell gets to keep continuity in the squad. Perhaps bok mgmt put a word in.

I suppose you're right about Paige, just strange that Hougaard was shown little faith but then the question of Rhule still lingers when form is brought into it.

I think everybody is frothing at the mouth and waiting in anticipation to see if Rhule will start or not...
 
Now that the RC is done and dusted the next Test is Ireland in a months time.

Things we've learnt:
  • Elton Jantjies is not our answer as a starting 10. This is definitive now. I do believe that he can play a role off the bench depending on the situation
  • Our backline is mediocre, besides Serfontein and Cronje, for the most part.
  • Jesse Kriel needs to hamba wena and fast. Worst Bok 13 since Waylon Murray. They draw similar parallels in their lack of distribution and sideways running. A change here could ripple through our backline
  • Our forwards, specifically our tight 5 are a force. Besides the terrible line out in Albury they've been solid. Loose forwards don't get a collective mention because of Cassim. The biggest step ups have been Kolisi and Marx.
  • Big question marks still remain on who should be our wings. The poor fellows are outside Jantjies and Kriel so it's difficult to know if they ineffective or are they just getting a raw deal. Much like Mapoe who had the misfortune of playing outside DDA in every Test match before he got dropped.
I see the Lions players are back into the Currie Cup fold. Stupid decision. I thought the point of the indaba was to be more clever about handling our players. Coetzee needs to announce immediately who will be going to Europe and those players should be managed accordingly.
 
Now that the RC is done and dusted the next Test is Ireland in a months time.

Things we've learnt:
  • Elton Jantjies is not our answer as a starting 10. This is definitive now. I do believe that he can play a role off the bench depending on the situation
  • Our backline is mediocre, besides Serfontein and Cronje, for the most part.
  • Jesse Kriel needs to hamba wena and fast. Worst Bok 13 since Waylon Murray. They draw similar parallels in their lack of distribution and sideways running. A change here could ripple through our backline
  • Our forwards, specifically our tight 5 are a force. Besides the terrible line out in Albury they've been solid. Loose forwards don't get a collective mention because of Cassim. The biggest step ups have been Kolisi and Marx.
  • Big question marks still remain on who should be our wings. The poor fellows are outside Jantjies and Kriel so it's difficult to know if they ineffective or are they just getting a raw deal. Much like Mapoe who had the misfortune of playing outside DDA in every Test match before he got dropped.
I see the Lions players are back into the Currie Cup fold. Stupid decision. I thought the point of the indaba was to be more clever about handling our players. Coetzee needs to announce immediately who will be going to Europe and those players should be managed accordingly.

Excellent post. Basically how I see it as well.

- I really want to like Elton, but yeah, we can't wait much longer for him to have a good game. I really want him to be dynamic kicking and passing but it is not there. He is not making an impact on the games. I would still start him against Ireland unless Pollard can dethrone him in training (when we are not watching). Otherwise, I want to see Bosch start Wales or Italy and go from there. He is young but if we are going to take him to the World Cup we need to start seeing him.

- For the backline I think that Coetzee had a good tournament. I think that he is trying hard to not make mistakes so his game it a little bit conservative but what mistakes did he make? I can't remember one. I thought that he ran into contact very well, especial against the All Blacks. His long distance kicking isn't perfect but then again nobody's is. A lot of people that know more about Rugby than me really like Serfontein but I don't really know what separated him from the rest of the backline in terms of performance. The wings don't get the ball enough and I see him as a part of that problem. But yes, backs are a problem for the Boks. It is 100% what separated them from the Aussies.

- Ross Cronje is not a world beater but I think he is a very good rugby player. I like him in the squad and agree with the decision to play him over Faf. And I like Faf, but Cronje is a better rugby player. It is very clear why coaches like him.

- Forwards are great. All of them. I thought Cassim played well against Arg but was certainly quieter against the Oz and NZ.

- Wings, yeah, who to play?? Nkosi? Want to start Senatla, Kok and Specman? They have played all over the world and won. That's gotta be worth something. Mapoe can come back, for sure.

- I am really disappointed that any Bok that played a large role in the Rugby Championship will be playing in the Currie Cup. They should be on Holiday for a week or two before preparing for Ireland. So dumb, so dumb. As a fan I am ******!!!
 
Excellent post. Basically how I see it as well.

- I really want to like Elton, but yeah, we can't wait much longer for him to have a good game. I really want him to be dynamic kicking and passing but it is not there. He is not making an impact on the games. I would still start him against Ireland unless Pollard can dethrone him in training (when we are not watching). Otherwise, I want to see Bosch start Wales or Italy and go from there. He is young but if we are going to take him to the World Cup we need to start seeing him.

- For the backline I think that Coetzee had a good tournament. I think that he is trying hard to not make mistakes so his game it a little bit conservative but what mistakes did he make? I can't remember one. I thought that he ran into contact very well, especial against the All Blacks. His long distance kicking isn't perfect but then again nobody's is. A lot of people that know more about Rugby than me really like Serfontein but I don't really know what separated him from the rest of the backline in terms of performance. The wings don't get the ball enough and I see him as a part of that problem. But yes, backs are a problem for the Boks. It is 100% what separated them from the Aussies.

- Ross Cronje is not a world beater but I think he is a very good rugby player. I like him in the squad and agree with the decision to play him over Faf. And I like Faf, but Cronje is a better rugby player. It is very clear why coaches like him.

- Forwards are great. All of them. I thought Cassim played well against Arg but was certainly quieter against the Oz and NZ.

- Wings, yeah, who to play?? Nkosi? Want to start Senatla, Kok and Specman? They have played all over the world and won. That's gotta be worth something. Mapoe can come back, for sure.

- I am really disappointed that any Bok that played a large role in the Rugby Championship will be playing in the Currie Cup. They should be on Holiday for a week or two before preparing for Ireland. So dumb, so dumb. As a fan I am ******!!!
Combrinck is out for 6 months after picking up a shoulder injury in Japan so he is out of the debate.

How do these Japanese agreements work? Both Jantjies and Mostert are now over there. Surely they won't be yanked but to SA in 2 weeks time.

But yeah I also wanted to like Jantjies. He has been one of the key figures in the Lions rising up. Just can't seem to cut it at Test level.
 
Oh, and,

I am not entirely sure that Leyds played better that Rhule in the last two matches to be honest. I really like Leyds and want him in the set-up for sure. He is very exciting at the Stormers and I think reads the game very well with regards to counter attacking opportunities, but how much better was he than Rhule? It is true that Rhule is not a straight-up tackler but he can create turnovers by stealing the ball with quick hands and has excellent defensive recovery speed. Yes, his attempted tackles on kick offs in Albany were embarrassing but it wasn't his fault that the ABs scored so much. I noticed that Leyds didn't appear to be asked to do the same thing. Please correct me if I am wrong. Rhule is also a better athlete than Leyds.

Neither are good enough though.

Is there something up with coaching and pathways with regards to wing play in SA? Why don't there seem to be options right now? Surely the athletic potential is in the country. Off the top of my head I can't name a career prime SA wing in Europe right now either. Combrinck should get a game when fit but I don't think that he is the answer either really.

Jantjies is in Japan? I thought SARU told him not to go there anymore? I have no idea how anything works. I thought for sure players like Janties, Cronje, Coetzee and Marx would be on the beach this week, in the film room the next and only then report to camp again 2 weeks before tour. I can't believe they are going to be playing games. All four of those players are on the lions team that went to the SR final as well. Disgusting really.
 
agree with you Steve-o.

I think we shouldn't tamper too much with our forwards, maybe in the tighthead we should start with Louw instead of Dreyer who has been a walking penalty machine.

Isn't Warren Whitely ready for the EOYT?? I was under the impression that he would be back before the tour starts. Which would be great. Cassiem IMHO is not a test rugby candidate. But with that said, I thought our loose trio complimented each other rather well in the last test.

As for our backline, I think the only guy that has showed that he should stay in the starting lineup, is Jan Serfontein.

I think it's time that Rohan Janse van Rensburg teams up with Serfontein in the centre. Pollard to start at flyhalf, and perhaps keep Cronje for the time being until we get a better Scrumhalf.

As for the back 3, I'd like to see Senatla get his chance, along with Gelant and maybe Nkosi.

But I doubt we'll see much change happening in 2 weeks time.
 
I heard Warren and Coenie would be ready but if not we need Wilco instead of Dreyer. We're spoilt for choice in the forwards barring injury and the coaching staff have ironed out their role spectacularly. I noticed that during the Newlands test that most of our forwards were starting their runs with two hands on the ball as opposed to tucking and charging, a seemingly small thing but it keeps the defense honest, draws in defenders, keeps the defenders focus on the ball, allows you to quickly pass and doesn't make it completely obvious you're about to charge at the line. Most of Loods career he has been tucking the ball under his arm and crashing into the line, was just interesting to me to see him play this way. My point being that the Coaches are developing some x factor and continuity on attack, and our forwards are becoming a lot more dynamic because of it. Now all we need to change is the fact that a lot of the time the forwards are receiving the ball static, or resorting to pods to get go forward and we rarely run onto the ball or receive it at pace.

I think you could argue we need a change for each of our backline players. The EOYT brings perfect opportunity to blood some new options, I'd like to see new wings a new 13, a backup scrummy and a new 15.

I will finally concede that EJ is not our boy at 10, but tbf we have limited him a lot compared to how he was allowed to play at the Lions. Either he needs to be given the reigns or we need a flyhalf that can do specifically what AC wants. Pollard makes sense, until he's injured again and then we're in the same hole. Begging the bok staff to bring along Bosch and Willemse as backup, definitely Curwin as he has been bossing the game around at 10 especially in the wet at Kings Park which could come in handy up north.

Coetzee has been safe, you can see the intent to do something great and he has loads of energy but he doesn't deliver how a top class 15 should. Any fool can receive kicks and run into contact, we need our 15 to spark something, put a guy into space, go for the gaps, or chip if that's the only option left. Coetzee's boot is great, but Curwin's is better, it doesn't really matter as he's barely kicking anyway. If his lack of counter and serial contact is a directive then it's hopeless making changes at 15. If not, bring a guy like Gelant in to spark some magic into the backline.

As for the wings, I think Leyds is a solid option now, especially with his ability to cover 15 in a bind or the kicking game he brings, he links up well, out classes Rhule In defense, can wiggle his way through defenders, and has been really impressive for WP.

I like Skosan, perhaps not as much as with the Lions, but he's been solid overall this season.

We should experiment, Sbu won't disappoint, Mapimpi would also be a smart bet for a trial or two during this EOYT. Senatla is too obvious for me, being the all out speedster he is, hasn't quite been able to deal with not being able to run around people in 15s. That being said, he's had some great touches and many tries for WP and I would rather we had him in the squad then Rhule.

Serf has been solid, I wouldn't throw two new centres on but I would leave Jessie out of the squad entirely (despite his very brave defense in Newlands). Let's get RjvR, Am, and a guy like Venter who's been having a great season with the Cheetahs into the fold, all are as dynamic as they come. I've been saying all year DDA should be playing CC and SR until he is back to best and imo we're just hurting his game even more keeping him on the bench.

All in all if AC wants continuity and is scared of experimenting during the EOYT then we should at least try spread out changes at 10, 13 and 15, with Schreuder coming on at 9 off the bench.
 
Now that the RC is done and dusted the next Test is Ireland in a months time.


  • Jesse Kriel needs to hamba wena and fast. Worst Bok 13 since Waylon Murray. They draw similar parallels in their lack of distribution and sideways running. A change here could ripple through our backline
Haha wow you really went overboard there! Comparing him to Waylon Murray is very discriminating toward Jesse Kriel.
I actually think he is one of the better players in the backline. Everyone spoke about conditioning as a aspect where we are behind the All Blacks and if every player in the Springbok team was a little more like Jesse than we would be number one. He clearly has the discipline required for a test player and he has pace and can Tackle. Also he can play Fullback (which i think is his best position) and wing. His partnership with Serfontein ( although it will now come to an end) does help the lack of experience in our backline. Yes bring in guys like Rohan and AM but leave Kriel in the team, he is still young and has a lot of potential.

Edit: The worst Bok 13 since Waylon Murray was Lionel Mapoe.
 
Haha wow you really went overboard there! Comparing him to Waylon Murray is very discriminating toward Jesse Kriel.
I actually think he is one of the better players in the backline. Everyone spoke about conditioning as a aspect where we are behind the All Blacks and if every player in the Springbok team was a little more like Jesse than we would be number one. He clearly has the discipline required for a test player and he has pace and can Tackle. Also he can play Fullback (which i think is his best position) and wing. His partnership with Serfontein ( although it will now come to an end) does help the lack of experience in our backline. Yes bring in guys like Rohan and AM but leave Kriel in the team, he is still young and has a lot of potential.

Edit: The worst Bok 13 since Waylon Murray was Lionel Mapoe.
I do think he can add value as a utility back covering wing and full back. However the experiment at 13 should be dead and buried until he can produce worthy performances at SR level at least.
 
I do think he can add value as a utility back covering wing and full back. However the experiment at 13 should be dead and buried until he can produce worthy performances at SR level at least.

But he was so good during the French tour. But yes, since then there has been a bit of a downward slope with him in that position. Although, I don't think it's entirely his fault. He had to cover Rhule's defensive channel too...
 
Personally I think Jesse is one of the better performers in the backline. he's NOT a utility back, he's a 13. Put in a 10 that's not scared of running straight(come in Handre) and your whole backline starts running straight.
 
My take is the RC has largely confirmed a few of my suspiscions.

Our pack have been in decent form overall but there has emerged a definite pecking order;

Kitshoff > Beast is the one I'd have thought would be most obvious and that has come the longest but credit to Beast he has had a couple of great games. I'd still have Kitshoff as top especially looking ahead to 2019 but its great for our depth if Beast is in the mix. Some rest might even do him good. I'd bring Thomas du Toit into the fold for contingency planning and to avoid him ending being the next WP Nel (one that got away). Nyakane rounds out our options.

Marx is maturing nicely. We've known he is boss around the park but its his improvement in set plays that are very heartening indeed. His presence in general play was just about worth risking his poor throwing so its great it seems like that is improving every game. Mbonambi as back up is solid. Actually just wish he had more opportunity to develop as well as he is also one who needs to sort out his set play and also in particular his line out throwing. His work rate IMO is test quality though even if he isn't quite the unit Marx is. I hope and assume he was working hard with our locks in training at least. I've no idea how Bismarck, Brits, Johnson and Burden are fairing in Europe. Beyond Marx and Mbonambi the local pickings are strangely slim.

Oosthuizen I'll admit has surprised me. I was touting for Louw pre-RC but Oosthuizen has played himself into being a core player. I still have Louw ahead of the rest though I thinks its criminal Dreyer leapfrogged Nyakane into the starting tighthead role when Oosthuizen dropped out. I suppose its the utility tag curse but I do think its unfair to the player who is solid at the scrum and busy across the park.

Etzebeth, De Jager, PSdT, Mostert. I have time for all 4. I still think PSdT is better at lock but I understand injuries in the loose trio and depth of quality at lock will see him pack down on the side of the scrum probably from time tot time. All fit though...

Kriel, Kolisi, JLdP and Whiteley should be our loose forwards. Personally I'd have Marcel Coetzee in the mix if fit. Just give him that 1 cap short of 30 pasella.

That is a solid group of forwards with depth in quality and still very young. They should be peaking as a unit come 2019. Can hardly wait. We just need a third option at hooker to step up or have one of our veterans in Europe be fit and form if we needed it.

At the back though... feels like everything is still up in the air. I think only Serfontein is a certainty and even he might move between 12 and 13.
 
Cronje, Jantjies, Kriel, Skosan, Lleyds, Coetzee, Pollard... all of them have their pro's and cons.

They only dead certain backline player for me is Serfontein.

The only clear ommisions for me is Hougaard and Rhule. Cronje's service though has been starting to reach Hougaard levels of cumbersomeness. Do we not have a 9 in SA that can pass off of the base and accurately?

The enigma is De Allende. I was flabbergasted at how he could be included in the squad in the first place but chilled since his role wasn't really at the fore. I still think its odd having him hang around. I do think he has a ton of potential but let him and Pollard prove themselves at SR first. Pollard hasn't played any rugby for 2 years FFS. Just to note I do think Pollard is our man for 2019 (Willemse and Bosch to fight it out thereafter) BUT but but that is making a few huge assumptions. Let him earn it. Him and De Allende.

I still think RJvR and Combrinck deserve a shot. Lleyds I want to see more of. He's been hit and miss but like Rhule and co deserves at least a handful.
 
Someone's worked with Marx the last few weeks on his throws.....it was so bad I would've replaced him with just about anyone that could get the nr2 jersey over his head. Much better, I hope they keep on working. Beast will have to move to the bench if he wants to see 100 caps. I don't want to see our centres split but there's a certain young Lion waiting to come back to 12, so Jan will move to 13 and Jesse will move to the bench or 15.
 
Cronje, Jantjies, Kriel, Skosan, Lleyds, Coetzee, Pollard... all of them have their pro's and cons.

They only dead certain backline player for me is Serfontein.

The only clear ommisions for me is Hougaard and Rhule. Cronje's service though has been starting to reach Hougaard levels of cumbersomeness. Do we not have a 9 in SA that can pass off of the base and accurately?

The enigma is De Allende. I was flabbergasted at how he could be included in the squad in the first place but chilled since his role wasn't really at the fore. I still think its odd having him hang around. I do think he has a ton of potential but let him and Pollard prove themselves at SR first. Pollard hasn't played any rugby for 2 years FFS. Just to note I do think Pollard is our man for 2019 (Willemse and Bosch to fight it out thereafter) BUT but but that is making a few huge assumptions. Let him earn it. Him and De Allende.

I still think RJvR and Combrinck deserve a shot. Lleyds I want to see more of. He's been hit and miss but like Rhule and co deserves at least a handful.

indeed.

But there's no use we tout Combrinck now. He's out for the rest of the year after his shoulder surgery last week. So we have to make due without him.

RJvR is also my pick to be added to the bok squad for the EOYT.

I think Bosch will be added to the squad for the tour. AC said that he wanted Bosch to play CC to prepare him for different playing conditions, so I think that was some sort of tip that AC wants to take him to NH.

My biggest worry at the moment is, who is going to be our Forwards coach?? Van Graan resigned yesterday, to take up his job at Munster. Does that mean that Rassie will be released earlier and that he will do Van Graan's job too?
 

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