Bok squad 2017

[George Ford]

Pollard & Cronje fit to go! AC saying Pollard will cover centre too.

The Springbok squad to Australia and New Zealand:

Forwards

Uzair Cassiem (flank), Cheetahs - 3 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Lood de Jager (lock), Bulls -29 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Ruan Dreyer (prop), Lions - 1 cap, 0 points
Dan du Preez (No 8), Sharks - uncapped
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward), Sharks - 6 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock), Stormers - 25 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Eben Etzebeth (lock), Stormers - 59 caps, 15 points (3 tries)
Steven Kitshoff (prop), Stormers - 15 caps, 0 points
Siya Kolisi (flank), Stormers - 21 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Jaco Kriel (loose forward), Emirates Lions/Kubota Spears (Jap) - 10 caps, 0 points
Malcolm Marx (hooker), Lions - 7 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker), Stormers - 10 caps, 0 points
Franco Mostert (lock), Lions/Ricoh Black Rams (Japan) - 12 caps, 0 points
Tendai Mtawarira (prop), Sharks - 92 caps, 10 points (2 tries)
Trevor Nyakane (prop), Bulls - 30 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Coenie Oosthuizen (prop), Sharks - 28 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker), Sharks - 22 caps, 5 points (1 try)

Backs

Andries Coetzee (fullback), Lions - 5 caps, 0 points
Ross Cronje (scrumhalf), Lions - 3 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Damian de Allende (centre), Stormers - 24 Caps, 15 points (3 tries)
Francois Hougaard (scrumhalf), Worcester (England) - 44 caps, 25 points (5 tries)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf), Lions/NTT Shining Arcs (Japan) - 16 caps, 166 points (2 tries, 30 conversions, 32 penalties)
Jesse Kriel (centre), Bulls - 21 caps, 25 points (5 tries)
Dillyn Leyds (utility back), Stormers - 3 caps, 0 points
Rudy Paige (scrumhalf), Bulls - 9 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Handre Pollard (flyhalf), Bulls - 20 caps, 188 points (2 tries, 29 conversions, 37 penalties, 3 drop goals)
Raymond Rhule (wing), Cheetahs - 5 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Jan Serfontein (centre), Bulls - 30 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Courtnall Skosan (wing), Lions - 5 caps, 5 points (1 try)

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Seems Bosch's jittery debut off the bench has cost him.

 

[George Ford]

Seems Bosch's jittery debut off the bench has cost him.

I think the plan was always to give Pollard the nod. AC reiterated he was fit to play in Salta already, but decided to give him more conditioning. Also - as Pollard is a contracted SARU player, he is not permitted to play in CC, so now they're forced to give him game time in RC

Yup - the policy-making bureaucratic administressers at SARU never quite think things through.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think the plan was always to give Pollard the nod. AC reiterated he was fit to play in Salta already, but decided to give him more conditioning. Also - as Pollard is a contracted SARU player, he is not permitted to play in CC, so now they're forced to give him game time in RC

Yup - the policy-making bureaucratic administressers at SARU never quite think things through.

Not necessarily. I think that Bosch is ultimately going to be a regular for the Boks, and he might not yet be ready to play against the Aussies and All Blacks, but he certainly will be in the mix for the EOYT. At least now he can't go and become a project player for Ireland or Scotland...

Pollard was inevitably going to get the chance to play again, and from what I'm reading, he's in a very good physical condition, and I know AC likes him more than Elton. It might be good for Elton too to have some competition again in that position. You should never be too comfortable in that position.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Pollard & Cronje fit to go! AC saying Pollard will cover centre too.

The Springbok squad to Australia and New Zealand:

Forwards

Uzair Cassiem (flank), Cheetahs - 3 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Lood de Jager (lock), Bulls -29 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Ruan Dreyer (prop), Lions - 1 cap, 0 points
Dan du Preez (No 8), Sharks - uncapped
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward), Sharks - 6 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock), Stormers - 25 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Eben Etzebeth (lock), Stormers - 59 caps, 15 points (3 tries)
Steven Kitshoff (prop), Stormers - 15 caps, 0 points
Siya Kolisi (flank), Stormers - 21 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Jaco Kriel (loose forward), Emirates Lions/Kubota Spears (Jap) - 10 caps, 0 points
Malcolm Marx (hooker), Lions - 7 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker), Stormers - 10 caps, 0 points
Franco Mostert (lock), Lions/Ricoh Black Rams (Japan) - 12 caps, 0 points
Tendai Mtawarira (prop), Sharks - 92 caps, 10 points (2 tries)
Trevor Nyakane (prop), Bulls - 30 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Coenie Oosthuizen (prop), Sharks - 28 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker), Sharks - 22 caps, 5 points (1 try)

Backs

Andries Coetzee (fullback), Lions - 5 caps, 0 points
Ross Cronje (scrumhalf), Lions - 3 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Damian de Allende (centre), Stormers - 24 Caps, 15 points (3 tries)
Francois Hougaard (scrumhalf), Worcester (England) - 44 caps, 25 points (5 tries)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf), Lions/NTT Shining Arcs (Japan) - 16 caps, 166 points (2 tries, 30 conversions, 32 penalties)
Jesse Kriel (centre), Bulls - 21 caps, 25 points (5 tries)
Dillyn Leyds (utility back), Stormers - 3 caps, 0 points
Rudy Paige (scrumhalf), Bulls - 9 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Handre Pollard (flyhalf), Bulls - 20 caps, 188 points (2 tries, 29 conversions, 37 penalties, 3 drop goals)
Raymond Rhule (wing), Cheetahs - 5 caps, 5 points (1 try)
Jan Serfontein (centre), Bulls - 30 caps, 20 points (4 tries)
Courtnall Skosan (wing), Lions - 5 caps, 5 points (1 try)

Wow, the most tries anyone in the squad has is 5...

 

[TRF_heineken]

Wow, the most tries anyone in the squad has is 5...

Ooh careful... The naysayers won't like that you point out that Jesse Kriel and Hougaard are the most prolific at scoring tries in the squad....

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Ooh careful... The naysayers won't like that you point out that Jesse Kriel and Hougaard are the most prolific at scoring tries in the squad....

LOL, @TRF_heineken . If 5 tries in 44 matches with many of them on the wing is prolific we are in trouble! Also, I don't recall anyone saying Kriel cannot finish off tries. Its the fact that he does not seem able to bring others into the mix and questions about his all round skill set and decision making that is the concern.

Here's hoping Lleyds comes straight in to #14 and Pollard regains form. Bosch Schmosch. It'd be good to go into 2019 with more than 1 experienced 10 and I use the word experienced rather lightly. Especially with Lambie seeking to be released. Let Bosch and Willemse fight it out to be Pollard's understudy post 2019 IMO.

 

[George Ford]

Not necessarily. I think that Bosch is ultimately going to be a regular for the Boks, and he might not yet be ready to play against the Aussies and All Blacks, but he certainly will be in the mix for the EOYT. At least now he can't go and become a project player for Ireland or Scotland...

Pollard was inevitably going to get the chance to play again, and from what I'm reading, he's in a very good physical condition, and I know AC likes him more than Elton. It might be good for Elton too to have some competition again in that position. You should never be too comfortable in that position.

Was watching First XV last night. Interesting when JdV & Bros had to debate Pollard's inclusion over Bosch, a decision which Bros doesn't support as he backs the principle of picking the player in form and that Pollard should've rather played himself into form in CC. A very good argument and in reply JdV alluded to Pollard's proven ability & class in the Bok jersey. While both points are valid, AC & Co's prevailing decision is based on the management of Bosch, not rushing him into the big stages I couldn't agree more.

Would like to hear you guys take on this, if any..

 

[TRF_heineken]

Was watching First XV last night. Interesting when JdV & Bros had to debate Pollard's inclusion over Bosch, a decision which Bros doesn't support as he backs the principle of picking the player in form and that Pollard should've rather played himself into form in CC. A very good argument and in reply JdV alluded to Pollard's proven ability & class in the Bok jersey. While both points are valid, AC & Co's prevailing decision is based on the management of Bosch, not rushing him into the big stages I couldn't agree more.

Would like to hear you guys take on this, if any..

To me there is really no contest in who to pick. Pollard, Pollard, Pollard. We don't have a lot of fly halves that has played against the All Blacks and beaten them. I also agree with AC saying that it doesn't help having Pollard play one CC game, which is in any case not the same class as WR. And at the same time he's with the bokke and according to all reports in a very good condition.

My question would be, if Heinrich Brussouw, or Duane Vermeulen was in the same position as Pollard is now, would you do the same/have the same opinion???

 

[Durbanite]

Coenie has been cleared, his ribs are fine. I'm very glad he will be with the squad still.

I still don't think you should be out injured for almost 2 seasons and then just walk into the bok setup. Jaintjies was absolutely bashed for ages and went the hard route to get to the national 10, and I believe he thoroughly deserves that jersey after proving to us again and again that he's not that snot nose kid who couldn't kick a ball to save his life.

Pollard played well for HM three years ago when the other 10s were injured and MS was unavailable for selection (admittedly his career prior to bok selection was by no means stale or unmoving). I understand he would've got a call up sooner or later, but it doesn't mean he should've leapfrogged due process in terms of proving himself to the fans, now all we have is ACs word that he is "fitter than ever" and bok training is 'more than match intensity". Please, sounds like spin at an ANC presser.

I'm not upset he got called up, just how it was done. In 2014 I was shocked at Pollard's running and passing skills, as well as his tactical mindset. He was a revelation for the boks in a time where MS was the only option, and had he not been injured I would've been equally upset had Jaintjies for instance, come into the squad ahead of him.

I know that he will prove me wrong, and I hope he does too, as long as AC keeps the boks a cohesive unit and Pollard understands where he fits in there should be little difference with either of them at 10.

Right now, selecting Curwin would've been a very risky decision, and playing Pollard kills two birds with one stone. We get cover at 10 and extra cover at centre, and we can find out if he's ready to be a bok again. It was the right decision for a coach, not so much fans imo. His selection was a luxury afforded by not locking in Bosch as a backup.

Last thought, Pollard suits running rugby, maybe not as much as Jaintjies but I'm keen to see what he can bring to the game now that he won't be restricted by HM. (Don't offload, don't snipe when you can kick, and other silly "rules" HM was notorious for etc.). That being said if he gets subbed in at flyhalf he better not play bulls rugby, I'm by no means ready to see this team revert to constantly kicking the ball away.

 

[George Ford]

To me there is really no contest in who to pick. Pollard, Pollard, Pollard. We don't have a lot of fly halves that has played against the All Blacks and beaten them. I also agree with AC saying that it doesn't help having Pollard play one CC game, which is in any case not the same class as WR. And at the same time he's with the bokke and according to all reports in a very good condition.

My question would be, if Heinrich Brussouw, or Duane Vermeulen was in the same position as Pollard is now, would you do the same/have the same opinion???

If it was the same Duane as the HM era then he'd certainly be even 1st choice. In fact - HM did just that: He selected him the minute he was declared fit to play in 2012 after missing the England tour and 1st 2 games of RC against los Pumas. Forming, IMO, the most dominant Boks loose-trio combo with Alberts & Flo (going off topic now...) But right now, I choose Whiteley over Duane at 8, but that in itself is a different debate altogether.

I assume you only compare Pollard to the likes of a Vermeulen & Brussouw in that they are undeniable game-breakers in their positions WHEN AT THEIR PEAK. And that right there forms the crux of my opinion (on both). Pollard showed poor form for the Bulls at the beginning of the season. His kicking was off his own standard, he was less agile as he gained a lot of weight and his game management way off par.

I know the Boks setup is different (better) to the Bulls and I am actually happy he is getting another shot to prove himself in a different environment (if that were the issue), whilst at the same time Bosch should officially be appointed as 1st choice 10 at his union (if he hasn't already now that Lambie possibly on the way out) and then still perform consistently week-in and out.

With Jantjies looking settled at international level and Pollard as a backup (for now), there is room to allow for our up and coming flyhalves (Bosch, Willemse, Radebe) to be managed through the structures of their unions and in the same essence restore some credibility to our CC.

 

[TRF_heineken]

If it was the same Duane as the HM era then he'd certainly be even 1st choice. In fact - HM did just that: He selected him the minute he was declared fit to play in 2012 after missing the England tour and 1st 2 games of RC against los Pumas. Forming, IMO, the most dominant Boks loose-trio combo with Alberts & Flo (going off topic now...) But right now, I choose Whiteley over Duane at 8, but that in itself is a different debate altogether.

I assume you only compare Pollard to the likes of a Vermeulen & Brussouw in that they are undeniable game-breakers in their positions WHEN AT THEIR PEAK. And that right there forms the crux of my opinion (on both). Pollard showed poor form for the Bulls at the beginning of the season. His kicking was off his own standard, he was less agile as he gained a lot of weight and his game management way off par.

I know the Boks setup is different (better) to the Bulls and I am actually happy he is getting another shot to prove himself in a different environment (if that were the issue), whilst at the same time Bosch should officially be appointed as 1st choice 10 at his union (if he hasn't already now that Lambie possibly on the way out) and then still perform consistently week-in and out.

With Jantjies looking settled at international level and Pollard as a backup (for now), there is room to allow for our up and coming flyhalves (Bosch, Willemse, Radebe) to be managed through the structures of their unions and in the same essence restore some credibility to our CC.

I don't think we can use those 3 games he played for the Bulls as a yardstick. He was still recovering from injury, all the while the whole Bulls team weren't properly coached, and of course his kicking was off, he had an ankle injury...

But yes, I use Vermeulen and Brussouw as example because if they were available for selection, there aren't many players that would outperform them in a Bok Jersey in their position. And I think with Pollard it's the same.

 

[WaterboySA]

Stormer what do you call that thing living under a bridge in fairy tales???Don't go down to his level.

 

[TRF_heineken]

30-man Springbok squad for the Tests in Bloemfontein and Cape Town:

Forwards (17 players):

Uzair Cassiem, Lood de Jager, Ruan Dreyer, Dan du Preez, Jean-Luc du Preez, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Eben Etzebeth (captain), Steven Kitshoff, Siya Kolisi, Francois Louw, Wilco Louw, Malcolm Marx, Bongi Mbonambi, Franco Mostert, Tendai Mtawarira, Trevor Nyakane, Chiliboy Ralepelle

Backs (13 players):

Andries Coetzee, Ross Cronje, Damian de Allende, Elton Jantjies, Jesse Kriel, Dillyn Leyds, Rudy Paige, Handré Pollard, Raymond Rhule, Louis Schreuder, Jan Serfontein, Courtnall Skosan, S'busiso Nkosi


So 3 guys added to the squad. 3 guys who could actually change our team a lot. Nkosi has been making a lot of waves in the Currie Cup. Even more so than Senatla...

 

[Durbanite]

I'm happy with that, well, as happy as the times allow. We get Louw to handle the fetching, and I wonder if we will see Nkosi + Leyds on the wings. Just wondering why no Combrinck and how Hougie gets dropped from the squad but Rhule can hang around (aside from the fact we got another 9 to take his place). Surely there is no way Rhule will start?

Louw will probably start for JL, was hoping to see him and Dan together but atleast Dan is still in the squad. We should give him a shot at 8 while Whiteley is injured. Wondering whether we will see Schreuder at all but I'm happier with him as backup for 9.
I didn't think drafting him was a possibility yet.

Centres? No? Pollard? hmm?

I think its good AC is grasping for continuity although these changes are too little too late, wholesale changes is the last resort. For a team that lost to Italy last year 1 loss, being nilled by NZ with our current level of progress is NOT a crisis, especially with the way NZ are playing and how they similarly trounced us last year. We will never challenge them again if our coach is forced to second guess every choice by the fans and media in this way.

Overseas players is not the answer, when we loose to all the EOYT teams then maybe, but this squad is already hewn from a reaction to these types of losses. AC was not the only one trying to stay calm, Venter and the like are equally optimistic, misplaced or not. Guys like Aaron Smith and Read have come out and said that the score doesn't reflect the Saffas effort, and have backed ACs claims of hidden/unknown positivity with their statements in a way.

I find myself increasingly frustrated with the NZ test, its shredded the rugby public's optimism and is forcing us to consider things we had overcome, both in terms of style and personnel. I'm glad that AC is his own man, I'm upset he didn't take responsibility for the loss as well as he could have, but I'm glad he hasn't knee jerked this loss so badly we loose what semblance of progress we've uncovered this year.

I hate talking politics, doubly so when all my rugby circles are absolutely infested with talks of quotas and the like. My opinion is that these talks are unwarranted in regards to our recent loss and I'll leave it at that.

 

[TRF_heineken]

To be honest I don't know what to take from this.

Flouw I think will start surely. But the question is if Cassiem will remain in the starting line-up or move to the bench or out of the 23 altogether?
The fact that Rhule & Skosan is still there, makes me think that AC will give them one more chance...
Schreuder will surely slot in just for cover. Remember that he's still uncapped, so my guess is that AC will pick Paige ahead of him.

What's very frustrating for me is that Pollard finally gets the chance to get some game time for the Blue Bulls this coming weekend, and then John Mitchell decides not to pick him. So another week of Pollard not playing.

 

[mdaclarke]

1. Have Combrinck and RJVR run over AC's dog and cat respectively
2. What incriminating photos of AC has Rhule got?

I can think of no other rational explanation!!!

 

[Durbanite]

Flouw I think will start surely. But the question is if Cassiem will remain in the starting line-up or move to the bench or out of the 23 altogether?

I agree on Flouw and JL has much value off the bench which couples nicely with Flo's inclusion.

Cas HAS to be given leave, I think perhaps my assessment of him being so vague and unseen at 8 is a tad unfair, but compare him to Read or even Whiteley and it shows we are currently wanting at 8 imo. Still ticks me off that DdP didn't come off the bench, I bet he would be starting if he had. I hope that he gets a 40~min off the bench against the Aussies, at least we could see if he has anything to offer against NZ

The fact that Rhule & Skosan is still there, makes me think that AC will give them one more chance..

Sadly, I think you're spot on. At the very least Rhule should be benched, but I don't see a reason to include him in the squad at all. As I said in the other thread, I think we could start Sbu straight away and he'd perform but being uncapped and all that I can see why AC would hold off, it wouldn't matter if Combrinck was amongst these names!

Schreuder will surely slot in just for cover. Remember that he's still uncapped, so my guess is that AC will pick Paige ahead of him.

My thoughts too, strange to include him but not play him off the bench if AC is looking for new options at 9 though but Leyds has yet to run on so there's that.

What's very frustrating for me is that Pollard finally gets the chance to get some game time for the Blue Bulls this coming weekend, and then John Mitchell decides not to pick him. So another week of Pollard not playing.

Nothing short of criminal, with all the calls for him to get game time it's a slap in the face for the national team, we could've weighed his performance in a controlled environment. I've softened my stance on Pollard and think he may have an important role I play, but I still think he needs all the time he can get at 10 as possible before being thrown into the lions cage, or whatever the kiwi version of that is, fruit basket? Aviary?

 

[User1245]

Nothing short of criminal, with all the calls for him to get game time it's a slap in the face for the national team, we could've weighed his performance in a controlled environment. I've softened my stance on Pollard and think he may have an important role I play, but I still think he needs all the time he can get at 10 as possible before being thrown into the lions cage, or whatever the kiwi version of that is, fruit basket? Aviary?

John Mitchell is in town for sure! He is looking after his team. There's very little benefit for him to use Pollard with the Currie Cup in context. I doubt his KPI is win the Currie Cup and give Pollard game time. Although it should be if they're all working towards the goal of a strong Bok team.

Re the squad inclusions: Sort of a step in the right direction. Nkosi is without a doubt a future Bok, lets hope that he gets game time without getting thrown in the deep end. However Rhule not being dropped is worrying to say the least... Surely he has done enough to warrant his express exclusion? Surely he won't start? And if he does where does that leave us for the AB test? I'd take an untested Nkosi over a frequently exposed Rhule any day.

I agree Flouw is a stop gap solution considering that Cassim is the weak link in the loose trio. We all know why he's staying though.

Any changes to the scrum-half position is welcome however that comment might come back to haunt me if Paige starts... I do have a strong suspicion that Paige will continue to warm the bench though since he is very much the quintessential quota passenger.

EDIT: Nearly forgot to mention Mapimpi. This guy has been a frequent performer in a shaky team. How this guy isn't in the mix is baffling. Maybe the Cheetahs have asked to retain him so they can keep things respectable in the Pro14? Besides him Combrinck is once again a glaring omission.

 

[mdaclarke]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11924549

I agree with this article