Bledisloe III: Australia v New Zealand, 20/10/2012

[big ginger 8]

Aussies continue dropping like flies - Ben Alexander now out with a wrist injury, with Slipper coming into the starting lineup, and Kepu (who is just back from injury) onto the bench.

Ben Alexander will miss the test owing to a wrist injury.
James Slipper will now start, with Sekope Kepu sitting on the bench.

Cough

 

[james5000]

I see nobody's bet on Australia so far...^_^

If you hadn't noticed Aussie is the least fancied TIER 1 nation on here, look at that last Argentina game 16 backed Argentina (LOL) and only 1 put their v cash on Aus, and it was basically even money.

As for Retallick v Romano

I agree Romano is a better open field runner but I don't think he's much better than Retallick. Neither of them have good footwork, and Romano bends the line slightly more than Retallick. Retallick looks a bit ungainly when running with ball in hand (or running full stop) but he does bend the line a bit, he is also very adequate at ball retention. I don't think he needs to do that much running in the open he should just stick to what he does best and that's the stuff that doesn't really get noticed.

I reckon Retallick will be the best NZ lock of this generation, he just needs to get more game time.

 

[Darwin]

If you hadn't noticed Aussie is the least fancied TIER 1 nation on here, look at that last Argentina game 16 backed Argentina (LOL) and only 1 put their v cash on Aus, and it was basically even money.

As for Retallick v Romano

I agree Romano is a better open field runner but I don't think he's much better than Retallick. Neither of them have good footwork, and Romano bends the line slightly more than Retallick. Retallick looks a bit ungainly when running with ball in hand (or running full stop) but he does bend the line a bit, he is also very adequate at ball retention. I don't think he needs to do that much running in the open he should just stick to what he does best and that's the stuff that doesn't really get noticed.

I reckon Retallick will be the best NZ lock of this generation, he just needs to get more game time.

Yep, Retallick certainly is something special. The only problem he has is that he has spent most of his career as a LH lock - it is only really at test level he has been forced to scrum on the TH side. He certainly has the size/strength to be a very strong scrummaging TH lock, he just lacks the experience in the position. If he is going to continue to play as a TH lock for the AB's (which I think he should), he needs to spend some time on that side for the Chiefs next season...

Right, onto the game itself. By all rights the AB's should win this game comfortably, but I'm sure they aren't taking anything for granted (at least I hope not!). We should have a big advantage in the tight-five (as we usually do against Australia). I would like to see us target Australia's lineout this match, as they don't really have that many quality jumpers. Sharpe is obviously world class, and Higginbotham is a good jumper too, but Hooper is a midget, and it is difficult lifting Timani and Palu off the ground! The AB's should have an edge in the loose-forwards too, though we do have to keep close eye on Hooper, and Australia does look much better with Palu at 8. Much will depend on how Higginbotham plays - if he spends the game standing on the wing it isn't going to help Australia's cause.

The AB's obviously have a big advantage in the halves and in the midfield. I expect to see the AB's attacking the channel between Phipps and Beale this match, as I'm not convinced by Beale on defense (in fact they may use Nonu to run straight at Beale). Australia's midfield defense should be strong, so I expect we will attempt to out-flank them rather than go straight through them. I feel Australia are lacking in pace in the back three - Cummins and Ashley-Cooper would be on the slower side of test wings, while Harris is very slow for a test fullback. I expect the AB's will be trying to get Dagg, Jane, and Gear in a bit of space, as the Aussie outside backs will have trouble catching them. Another tactic I expect to see used a bit by the AB's in the bomb - preferably at Harris, as he is a bit shaky under the high-ball.

I'm expecting a relatively comfortable AB's win, though they may be a bit rusty in the first half. Overall I'm picking the AB's by 15.

 

[Big Ewis]

If you hadn't noticed Aussie is the least fancied TIER 1 nation on here, look at that last Argentina game 16 backed Argentina (LOL) and only 1 put their v cash on Aus, and it was basically even money.

As for Retallick v Romano

I agree Romano is a better open field runner but I don't think he's much better than Retallick. Neither of them have good footwork, and Romano bends the line slightly more than Retallick. Retallick looks a bit ungainly when running with ball in hand (or running full stop) but he does bend the line a bit, he is also very adequate at ball retention. I don't think he needs to do that much running in the open he should just stick to what he does best and that's the stuff that doesn't really get noticed.

I reckon Retallick will be the best NZ lock of this generation, he just needs to get more game time.

I know ! ****** me off too, I'd like to see a more healthy side for the Oz...right now we're not too sure where they stand. Good results during the RWC, but then again that loss to Ireland and then to SCOTLAND at home a few mths later...two much too close tests at home VS Wales, their zero result tests against NZ this past tournament, their very fragile display at home against Argentina (injuries though)...and then they might come to France and beat us big...it's just a bit of an ambiguous position for them and their fans. As opposed to say, Argentina that we all understand or even more obviously NZ, which have a 87 match winning streak at the moment, dating back to the early 2000's.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Yep, Retallick certainly is something special. The only problem he has is that he has spent most of his career as a LH lock - it is only really at test level he has been forced to scrum on the TH side. He certainly has the size/strength to be a very strong scrummaging TH lock, he just lacks the experience in the position. If he is going to continue to play as a TH lock for the AB's (which I think he should), he needs to spend some time on that side for the Chiefs next season...

I think this is a good time to put an end to this confusion: the side of the scrum in which players pack down seems to have nothing to do with their being the "tight lock" or the "loose lock". Both Brad Thorn and Bakkies Botha (the paradigm of modern TH locks) pack on the loosehead side of the scrum (by that I mean the left). Sharpe, Matfield, Ali Williams, pack in the right... I don't know what the rationale is when choosing who packs at the left or at the right in the scrum, but I don't think it's "heavier/stronger lock goes in the right", which seems to be part of the criteria for differentiating LH and TH props.

 

[Darwin]

I think this is a good time to put an end to this confusion: the side of the scrum in which players pack down seems to have nothing to do with their being the "tight lock" or the "loose lock". Both Brad Thorn and Bakkies Botha (the paradigm of modern TH locks) pack on the loosehead side of the scrum (by that I mean the left). Sharpe, Matfield, Ali Williams, pack in the right... I don't know what the rationale is when choosing who packs at the left or at the right in the scrum, but I don't think it's "heavier/stronger lock goes in the right", which seems to be part of the criteria for differentiating LH and TH props.

I have to completely disagree with you here. I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but in New Zealand there is a big distinction between a TH and LH lock. In New Zealand the TH locks always wear 4 and pack on the right hand side of the scrum. LH locks always where 5 and pack on the left hand side of the scrum. You can watch any ITM Cup/Super Rugby game from New Zealand and you will see exactly this.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Thorn packs on the LH side - he has always packed on the TH (right) side for the Crusaders/AB's (e.g. directly behind Owen Franks). Likewise I have only ever seen Bakkies Botha pack on the TH side. If you look at any youtube video of him in the scrum of either Thorn or Botha they are always on the right hand side (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqcYaWOhvy8 - a series of scrums 5 mins in clearly shows what side Thorn and Botha are packing on). Ali Williams generally packs on the LH side, though does pack on the TH side occasionally (such as when paired with Sam Whitelock). Nathan Sharpe is a LH lock (wears 5), hence always packs on the left side, as did Matfield (at least in all the matches I saw him play....).

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

To be honest, I have no idea why packing on the TH or LH side would require you to be a better scrummager. Could someone explain?

 

[Darwin]

To be honest, I have no idea why packing on the TH or LH side would require you to be a better scrummager. Could someone explain?

To put it simply, your TH side of the scrum has more pressure on it than your LH side. Because of the way the scrum is aligned, your TH effectively has two players pushing against him, while your LH only has one. Therefore most teams put their most powerful lock behind their TH prop to make their scrum stable.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Bit weird that the tight head lock is 4, and on the right then... Surely the 5 should be on the right, and ergo the tight head

Weird.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I have to completely disagree with you here. I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but in New Zealand there is a big distinction between a TH and LH lock. In New Zealand the TH locks always wear 4 and pack on the right hand side of the scrum. LH locks always where 5 and pack on the left hand side of the scrum. You can watch any ITM Cup/Super Rugby game from New Zealand and you will see exactly this.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Thorn packs on the LH side - he has always packed on the TH (right) side for the Crusaders/AB's (e.g. directly behind Owen Franks). Likewise I have only ever seen Bakkies Botha pack on the TH side. If you look at any youtube video of him in the scrum of either Thorn or Botha they are always on the right hand side (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqcYaWOhvy8 - a series of scrums 5 mins in clearly shows what side Thorn and Botha are packing on). Ali Williams generally packs on the LH side, though does pack on the TH side occasionally (such as when paired with Sam Whitelock). Nathan Sharpe is a LH lock (wears 5), hence always packs on the left side, as did Matfield (at least in all the matches I saw him play....).

Well, you've proven that I was indeed wrong. I guess my confusion came from the TH lock wearing number 4, i.e. not being left to right. In France it'susually left to right in all three rows of the scrum (although, cheking a video right now, Botha is an exception, wearing 4 and packing down in the right).
Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Well, you've proven that I was indeed wrong. I guess my confusion came from the TH lock wearing number 4, i.e. not being left to right. In France it'susually left to right in all three rows of the scrum (although, cheking a video right now, Botha is an exception, wearing 4 and packing down in the right).
Thanks for clearing that up.

Don't worry, I can see why you're confused. It sure as heck doesn't make any logical sense!

 

[Darwin]

Don't worry, I can see why you're confused. It sure as heck doesn't make any logical sense!

Tight forward play has never made any sense. It is well know that loose-forwards are kings among rugby players.

Well, you've proven that I was indeed wrong. I guess my confusion came from the TH lock wearing number 4, i.e. not being left to right. In France it'susually left to right in all three rows of the scrum (although, cheking a video right now, Botha is an exception, wearing 4 and packing down in the right).
Thanks for clearing that up.

No worries. I'm certainly no expert on tight-forward play myself - it is easy enough to work-out who is the TH and LH lock in New Zealand, but in other parts of the world it isn't as clear (I just saw a video of Thorn playing in the 5 jersey, but packing in the right hand side as usual for Leinster). As you say the numbering used in France logically makes much more sense!

 

[big ginger 8]

Thorn wore 5 mainly because Cullen just has the 4 jersey as his own. In Ireland it's quite flexible and kind of depends who the locking combination is.

Tight forward play is quite simple for smart people...such as the average front row.

 

[Darwin]

Thorn wore 5 mainly because Cullen just has the 4 jersey as his own. In Ireland it's quite flexible and kind of depends who the locking combination is.

Tight forward play is quite simple for smart people...such as the average front row.

The average front rower:

 

[Tekadus7]

Holy ****

Did not know that Dunning ever got a drop goal...
Did not know that a front rower ever got a drop goal...

 

[Tekadus7]

Holy ****

Did not know that Dunning ever got a drop goal...
Did not know that a front rower ever got a drop goal...

It's funny how it happened under the circumstances

 

[Big Ewis]

alright, LESS GO !

 

[peanuts40]

Forgot the game was even on....lol

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Interesting cheap shot by Higginbottom on McCaw.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ :lol: "interesting" indeed.