BBC Blog - The origins of the haka

[TRF_Cymro]

The haka is an emotive subject, with South Africa coach Pieter de Villiers whipping up a storm in New Zealand last week when he claimed the ritual was losing its lustre. "People are becoming used to it," he said. "It's not a novelty anymore and they don't respect it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/alastaireykyn/2011/09/the_origins_of_the_haka.html
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I quite like the article. Be interesting to see what the NZ members think of it.

 

[Jake Heke]

Don't really care too much about others opinions of our Haka/Culture, we live it, and we love it.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Don't really care too much about others opinions of our Haka/Culture, we live it, and we love it.

Arrogance is bliss ... hey

 

[cardassian]

Tis true we do live it and love it.
Personally I'm pretty sure we don't mind people standing up to it or ignoring it as they feel the need to do (at least I don't and don't know any kiwi's that do).
Is interesting that we haven't always done it but then again we used to beat Maori children for speaking Te Reo in school back in the day as well.
Maori culture has undergone a renaissance in NZ and this has probably been helped by the fact that the All Blacks haka before every game (as it has helped to mainstream a part of Maori culture in NZ).
Please ignore irb's rules about responses (we do love it when people stand up to the challenge and personally think it's the best response as it physcs up both teams) and allow us to continue promoting our culture in both NZ and the rest of the world.
Also please realise that Maori culture in NZ is very political and to expect a wide range of opinions on anything that involves Maori culture.

p.s. if you have any cultural practice you would like to do before a game i'm down with it.

 

[james5000]

Arrogance is bliss ... hey

You quote Pete Divvy and we're the arrogant ones?
Pete Divvy is an obvious troll, everything he says he wants to stir ****!
He doesn't believe half the things he says i am pretty sure

 

[Tricia McMillan]

While it's nice if our opponents respect it, or are even a bit intimidated by it (at the international level these days, I honestly doubt anyone is), I don't really care if they even ignore it. It's our culture, and it's what we do. These days, we do it more for ourselves and our fans than anything. It's traditional, after all.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

You quote Pete Divvy and we're the arrogant ones?
Pete Divvy is an obvious troll, everything he says he wants to stir ****!
He doesn't believe half the things he says i am pretty sure

Oi sunshine ... it's the quote from the start of the article, if you even bothered reading it before jumping the gun and having a go at me you would obviously realise this.

If you read the article is quite informative. But then again, selective reading.

 

[james5000]

Oi sunshine ... it's the quote from the start of the article, if you even bothered reading it before jumping the gun and having a go at me you would obviously realise this.

If you read the article is quite informative. But then again, selective reading.

I can't be bothered reading an article if the most informative piece is a quote from Pete Divvy haha, that's ridiculous

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I can't be bothered reading an article if the most informative piece is a quote from Pete Divvy haha, that's ridiculous

So why bother continuing to post then?

Its a quote from the start of the article e.g. a snippet ... its like talking to the class idiot here. If you have nothing to comment on the article itself then don't bother reading it.

 

[NJR1]

The IRB need to allow a responce to the Haka, or remove it from the game completely

 

[james5000]

So why bother continuing to post then?

Its a quote from the start of the article e.g. a snippet ... its like talking to the class idiot here. If you have nothing to comment on the article itself then don't bother reading it.

I might be wrong, but it sounds to me like you agree with Pete Divvy?

Pete Divvy is a **** stirrer, I guarantee he is more respectful then that.
Pete Divvy is quite good at psychological warfare, he just wants to get under people's skin.

I don't really care if people hate our culture or love it, as long as you respect it.
Challenging the Haka can be a definite sign of respect

What is your point in making this thread and quoting Pete Divvy?

 

[smartcooky]

Oh pleeeeease!!! Not ANOTHER haka thread that is bound to bring all the rednecks out from under their flat rocks!. Pleeease!!!!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I might be wrong, but it sounds to me like you agree with Pete Divvy?

Pete Divvy is a **** stirrer, I guarantee he is more respectful then that.
Pete Divvy is quite good at psychological warfare, he just wants to get under people's skin.

I don't really care if people hate our culture or love it, as long as you respect it.
Challenging the Haka can be a definite sign of respect

What is your point in making this thread and quoting Pete Divvy?

For you because you still cannot see that the article is a snippet from the beginning of the blog ... if you even bothered clicking the link to the blog article you would see this. Stop acting the fool and open your eyes. God I'd hate to be your teacher at school ...

The haka is an emotive subject, with South Africa coach Pieter de Villiers whipping up a storm in New Zealand last week when he claimed the ritual was losing its lustre. "People are becoming used to it," he said. "It's not a novelty anymore and they don't respect it."
Inevitably, the comments triggered articles in the Kiwi press featuring outraged Maori leaders, protective cultural figures and even a few disgruntled foreigners. But does De Villiers have a point?
For this week's Radio 5 live rugby programme, I spoke to a number of different people about the haka and its place in Maori culture and All Black history.

The haka can be seen as an act of intimidation before a rugby match. Photo: Getty

There are many different kinds of haka and the Maori use them for a variety of purposes. They use them to welcome people, to bid farewell to their dead, to celebrate success and to express collective pride.
The one haka recognised globally is the All Black haka: Ka Mate. This particular haka dates back over 200 years. A warrior chief named Te Raupahara composed it, having just escaped capture by a tribal rival. It was reflective of his relief and excitement at survival.
The words, "ka mate, ka mate, ka ora, ka ora" literally means "I die, I die, I live, I live." Te Raupahara became something of a heroic figure as a leader and a warrior and his haka was kept alive after his death.
The haka first became part of All Black operations in 1905 when it was adopted by "The Originals" - the first New Zealand side to tour overseas. It was performed not as a challenge in the sense we regard it now but more as pre-match entertainment.
When the All Blacks performed it in Cardiff in 1905, the Welsh responded by bursting into their anthem Land Of My Fathers.
The haka was only performed overseas until 1987. Before that it was a rather different visual experience to what we see before matches now.
Sir Wilson Whineray captained the All Blacks between 1957 and 1965. He told me it was very different then. He said: "It wasn't done very well in my day. We only had a couple of Maori boys in our side. Looking at the old footage, we just stood in the same spot and stamped our feet.
"It has evolved quite a bit and is certainly a lot more vigorous now. I look at that and think I would be exhausted at the end of it. But, wherever we went, people loved the haka. We were always asked to perform it."
The turning point in the history of the All Black haka was in the mid-1980s. Under the captaincy of Wayne 'Buck' Shelford, there was a drive to revitalise it and perform it on home soil.
Shelford said: "[All Black hooker] Hika Reid and I had a talk about it. We thought that, unless we had total buy-in from the players and management, we wouldn't do it. We did, so we thought, 'Right, let's practise it'. That was fun.
"Those pakeha [non-Maori] boys [were] stiff with no rhythm. They had to learn how to hang loose. We wondered how they were going to do the haka properly.
"With time and effort they got better. By 1987 they were pretty good at it and had learned and understood the origin of it - plus the meaning behind it. I'm proud we had the opportunity to give something back. I think it's great to advertise our culture before a game. I love to see the Kenyans doing a dance after their Sevens matches, for instance. The haka is real Kiwi, real New Zealand."

The French players (left) decided to step up and face the haka at the 2007 World Cup, just like the Irish did in 1989. Photo: Getty

Shelford was involved in one of the most memorable haka showdowns, at Lansdowne Road in 1989. The Ireland captain Willie Anderson linked arms with his team-mates and advanced on the All Blacks. He ended up nose-to-nose with Shelford.
Shelford added: "I thought it was fantastic. I spoke to Willie afterwards and he said, 'What did you think?'. I said, 'Good on you - what an awesome challenge. You responded like you meant it, some teams run away from it.'
"[Australia winger] David Campese used to run away and do his thing behind the goal-line. Some people say it's intimidating - but it's what you get out of it. The haka doesn't win us a game of rugby. Rugby wins rugby."
So what about the notion that the All Black haka is being overused, inappropriately performed, and even desecrated as an ancient ritual? Some Maori chiefs have been vocal, concerned it is losing its respect.
Recently, there have been numerous outbursts of hakas by groups of young Maori on the streets in Auckland. Some have attracted over a million viewings on the internet.
I went to see Tiki Edwards, a Maori who runs Haka World in Rotorua. It is not a theme park, merely a simple hut in a simple clearing, with two benches.
He said: "It can be intimidating, a mob of Maoris turning up unannounced. Maybe they're trying to display their culture, the ferocity of the haka?
My view is that you should save it for when you need it most. Some of them probably need to concentrate on getting a job. But that's the way they are expressing themselves. If they are drawing on their ancestors, then fine."
"For me, it's about teaching the essence of haka. I teach lots of hakas but Ka Mate is the famous one. I teach them that I am calling on my ancestors to be with me when I need them most. I teach them where it comes from and why it's important. It's a spiritual thing and a physical thing."
Arguably rugby and the haka are the two most-recognisable faces of New Zealand. Most New Zealanders I have spoken to are content with the haka as it is - as long as there is an understanding of its origins, significance to Maoris, and a healthy respect for it.
In a rugby sense, the haka still represents a laying down of the gauntlet and challenge to the opposition. It is also great drama and entertainment and there is no doubt the theatrical side of things has been exploited in recent years.
This argument is particularly relevant when discussing the newer Kapo O Pango haka adopted by the New Zealand rugby team and performed for the first time against the Springboks in 2005.
This haka was written by a cultural expert, Derek Lardelli. The aim was to incorporate a more contemporary feel with words more specific to the New Zealand team. It was also meant to reflect the wider social and cultural elements, with an emphasis on the Pacific Island tradition.
The controversial throat-slitting gesture at the end caused a big stir. Haka experts say this motion was originally meant to signify a drawing of breath from the sky to the lungs. Perhaps it suited the All Blacks better to leave the message mixed? It is provocative at best and menacing at worst.
There's little doubt the haka will continue to stimulate debate in both a cultural and sporting context. But does it remain relevant? And is it appropriate, possibly allowing the All Blacks an unfair psychological advantage before kick-off?
Regardless of those who love it, those who hate it, and those who are indifferent, the haka is here to stay. Tiki Edwards pointed out: "The haka is a living part of a living culture. It is evolving, just like everything else around us."

For more news and discussion from the Rugby World Cup, listen to BBC Radio 5 live on Thursday, 2100-2230 BST.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/alastaireykyn/2011/09/the_origins_of_the_haka.html

Follow ...

 

[Tricia McMillan]

Oh pleeeeease!!! Not ANOTHER haka thread that is bound to bring all the rednecks out from under their flat rocks!. Pleeease!!!!

While we're at it, should we start another thread about drop goals?

 

[james5000]

After reading this article I have to say that there was nothing new to me in it.

Sounds pretty accurate, why did you want our responses?

 

[NJR1]

Oh pleeeeease!!! Not ANOTHER haka thread that is bound to bring all the rednecks out from under their flat rocks!. Pleeease!!!!

The rednecks from Onehunga?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

After reading this article I have to say that there was nothing new to me in it.

Sounds pretty accurate, why did you want our responses?

Lot of people are getting ridiculed for 'not understanding' the haka because we are apparently 'clueless' in understanding other people's culture. It's a recent article for the guys really outside of the NZ bubble to understand.

 

[NJR1]

While we're at it, should we start another thread about drop goals?

Or one about Richie McCaw's cheating?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

What aspect of the artical where you expecting a response to Cymro? nothing really new there, good to see someone actually try and explain the "throat cut" gesture for what t was meant to be

edit: never mind, just seen james' comment

 

[smartcooky]

[TEXTAREA]This argument is particularly relevant when discussing the newer Kapo O Pango haka adopted by the New Zealand rugby team and performed for the first time against the Springboks in 2005.
This haka was written by a cultural expert, Derek Lardelli. [/TEXTAREA]


Jeeez... I wish they would get their facts straight before printing this stuff

Lardelli didn't "write" Kapo O Pango, he modified an existing one (called "Ko Niu Tirini") that was performed by the 1924 Invincibles

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ko Niu Tireni e haruru nei[/FONT] (New Zealand is rumbling here = a reference
to the erupton of volcanoes)


[TEXTAREA][TABLE="align: center"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]Leader
Team

Leader
Team

Leader
Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Kia whakangawari au i a hau!
I au-e! Hei!

Ko Niu Tireni e haruru nei.
Au! Au! Au-e ha! Hei!

Ko Niu Tireni e haruru nei.
Au! Au! Au-e ha! Hei!
A ha-ha!

Ka tu te ihiihi.
Ka tu te wanawana
Ki runga te rangi
E tu iho nei.
Au! Au! Au![/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Get ready for the clash!
I au-e! Hei!

New Zealand is rumbling here.
Au! Au! Au-e ha! Hei!

New Zealand is rumbling here.
Au! Au! Au-e ha! Hei!
A ha-ha!

Face up to the fear
Fight the terror
To the sky above
Fight up there,
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Leader

Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Tena i Poua!
O rongo Ingarangi,
Hauana i te ao e.
Ah! ha-ha!
Hora hia mai o mahi kia hau
Hora hia mai o Tiima kia hau
O mahi aku mahi me hui[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]To you of the Old Country!
The fame of England
has spread all over the world.
Yes! Indeed!
Show us some of this famed play
Put a few of your famous teams on display
And let's play each other in friendship.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Leader
Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Nga mahi tinihanga me kiki
Au! au! Hei!
Ah! Ha-ha!
Ka mutu nga mahi

Au! Au! Au-e! Ha![/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Any unsporting play we shall kick aside
Yeah!
Yes! Indeed!
When this tour is finished,
come to to Zealand
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Ha![/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]



[/TEXTAREA]

The words throw a different light on Haka, especially the references to England and playing rugby "in friendship"