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Aviva Premiership - Round 18

Getofmeland

The Dorset Drinker
TRF Legend
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Jan 27, 2004
Messages
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England
Club or Nation
Bath
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Friday 22nd March
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Salford City Stadium


Saturday 23rd March


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Kingsholm
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Madejski Stadium
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Adams Park - Live on SKY
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Sandy Park - Live on ESPN​




Sunday 24th March


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Allianz Park - Live on ESPN




 
Bath Rugby side to face Sale Sharks:
15. Nick Abendanon
14. Horacio Agulla
13. Matt Banahan
12. Kyle Eastmond
11. Tom Biggs
10. Tom Heathcote
9. Peter Stringer

1. Paul James
2. Rob Webber
3. David Wilson
4. Stuart Hooper ( c )
5. Dave Attwood
6. Francois Louw ( c )
7. Carl Fearns
8. Ben Skirving

Replacements
16. Ross Batty
17. Nathan Catt
18. Anthony Perenise
19. Dominic Day
20. Mat Gilbert
21. Michael Classens
22. Ollie Devoto
23. Semesa Rokoduguni
 
Bath Rugby side to face Sale Sharks:
15. Nick Abendanon
14. Horacio Agulla
13. Matt Banahan
12. Kyle Eastmond
11. Tom Biggs
10. Tom Heathcote
9. Peter Stringer

So with Joseph signing for Bath next season does that mean that Banahan will no longer be first choice?

Interesting to see Stringer keep Claassens out of the lineup. Makes it even more strange that Penney has backed Duncan Williams over him.
 
Wonder if anything more will come from Vunipola abusing the referee.
Didn't see/hear what went on, but Rose was livid and threatened to red card him.
 
F*****g P*ssing s*itting ********. **** you David Rose you massive tw*t.

Literally cost us this game with repeatedly poor decisions, greatly assisted by partner in crime TJ. How can we have such poor officiating at this level? I hear Fox had another calamity with Farmers vs Welsh today.

Back to my anger...3 Wasps players sinbinned, the first one accompanied by a penalty try, and this was literally 3 minutes in - card and a penalty try THAT EARLY ON!? No, not both. Credit should go to Saints for the clear strength of their set-piece, but againm even when we did a good job slowing down the driving maul they weren't at any point told 'That's once, thats twice etc', including when a driving lineout was static for a full five seconds. That penalty at the end for offside that led to the final winning try was utter ********. Wade played Vunipola onside with his chase, or so says law 11.2 (c).

Anyway, that's our domestic season over really - with Saracens next week I think playoff chances are now very slim. Saints? Meh, this is sour grapes but I reckon Mite would be the first to admit that Saints will need a more rounded game to beat the very best. They can bully teams with smaller packs, but it won't always be enough, I doubt it's going to win them ***les.

Another rant: sublime defensive performance from Wade today just elimates any remaining areas of doubt in his game. Same goes for Varndell. Defensively as solid as any EPS outside back with the exception of Foden, who himself got skinned today by Elliott for that superb try.

Ashley Johnson was immense today again don't blame him one bit for the sin-binning. Tom Lindsay had an absolutely storming game from the bench - Saxons anyone? He's surely the strongest English hooker in the loose, if he can increase his lineout percentage.

Anyway, ********!
 
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F*****g P*ssing s*itting ********. **** you David Rose you massive tw*t.

Literally cost us this game with repeatedly poor decisions, greatly assisted by partner in crime TJ. How can we have such poor officiating at this level? I hear Fox had another calamity with Farmers vs Welsh today.

Back to my anger...3 Wasps players sinbinned, the first one accompanied by a penalty try, and this was literally 3 minutes in - card and a penalty try THAT EARLY ON!? No, not both. Credit should go to Saints for the clear strength of their set-piece, but againm even when we did a good job slowing down the driving maul they weren't at any point told 'That's once, thats twice etc', including when a driving lineout was static for a full five seconds. That penalty at the end for offside that led to the final winning try was utter ********. Wade played Vunipola onside with his chase, or so says law 11.2 (c).

Anyway, that's our domestic season over really - with Saracens next week I think playoff chances are now very slim. Saints? Meh, this is sour grapes but I reckon Mite would be the first to admit that Saints will need a more rounded game to beat the very best. They can bully teams with smaller packs, but it won't always be enough, I doubt it's going to win them ***les.

Another rant: sublime defensive performance from Wade today just elimates any remaining areas of doubt in his game. Same goes for Varndell. Defensively as solid as any EPS outside back with the exception of Foden, who himself got skinned today by Elliott for that superb try.

Ashley Johnson was immense today again don't blame him one bit for the sin-binning. Tom Lindsay had an absolutely storming game from the bench - Saxons anyone? He's surely the strongest English hooker in the loose, if he can increase his lineout percentage.

Anyway, ********!
For a big fat man with low visibility due to a massive afro, Johnson was really good. He was impossible to move in those rucks. Didn't know his name at the time, but the sub hooker was carrying really strongly. Elliot's try was class. Wasps were unlucky, but The Saints' drives were huge.
 
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With regards to Vunipola's offside - Wade may have played him on, but I don't think Billy was retreating backwards. Standing still and/or moving forwards before being played back onside is a no-no.
 
With regards to Vunipola's offside - Wade may have played him on, but I don't think Billy was retreating backwards. Standing still and/or moving forwards before being played back onside is a no-no.

Exactly right. Vunipola was clearly called offside and made no effort to retreat. He was only played onside seconds before he joined Wade in making a tackle. Correct call.

Equally, it shouldn't matter how far into a match it is - if you collapse a moving maul 2 yards from your own line it is always going to be a professional foul. Palmer was unlucky to be binned for the same offense later in the game, but this was balanced out by Vunipola being let off for his outburst and no-arms hit. If that had been Lawes or Hartley I'm sure there would have been absolute uproar.

Saints were very dull today but that is par for the course this season. We knew what out strengths were and stuck to them. Qualifying for the Heineken and preparing for next season with our new signings is about the realistic extent of our ambition. We did get some decisions our way, but Wasps got far more of the calls at the breakdown and it could be argued that Daly's superb finish could have been called back for a toe in touch.
 
Exactly right. Vunipola was clearly called offside and made no effort to retreat. He was only played onside seconds before he joined Wade in making a tackle. Correct call.

Equally, it shouldn't matter how far into a match it is - if you collapse a moving maul 2 yards from your own line it is always going to be a professional foul. Palmer was unlucky to be binned for the same offense later in the game, but this was balanced out by Vunipola being let off for his outburst and no-arms hit. If that had been Lawes or Hartley I'm sure there would have been absolute uproar.

Saints were very dull today but that is par for the course this season. We knew what out strengths were and stuck to them. Qualifying for the Heineken and preparing for next season with our new signings is about the realistic extent of our ambition. We did get some decisions our way, but Wasps got far more of the calls at the breakdown and it could be argued that Daly's superb finish could have been called back for a toe in touch.

I can concede the Vunipola penalty point, I was on the other side of the pitch so had a less clear view I suppose. Also, if he did insult the referee you're right, there's a binning in that, as there's no place for it on the pitch.

However, there is a problem with how driving lineouts are currently treated by some referees, and for me its as follows:

The key principle of these is that you can only tackle the ball carrier. That's fine. It means you have to come up with a very good response to these lineouts otherwise they will go on for ever, unless someone can somehow squirm their way through the middle to the carrier. In theory this gets harder the longer the truck is. Because they're a superweapon, however, they need to be reffed correctly, and for me that means being very hot on teams when their lineouts get static. If your refereee doesn't do that, driving lineouts are almost literally invulnerable. For me, Rose gave Saints too much breathing space when Wasps had countered the initial setting of the driving lineout, and allowed them too much time to get it going again. The other thing is that officials need to be clear why the lineout is coming down, and not just assume that it was brought down by a defender, even though is most likely to be the case. It should be remembered that the foremost player in the drive has as much a responsibility for keeping it alive as the defender pressurising him backwards.

About the breakdown, the moments you are referrng to are those when Ash and co won penalties for Saints holding on. Everyone in the ground could see that they were coming because Johnson was just never dislodged. I don't think there was any controversy at all about such decisions.
 
Manoa is ****ing excellent at steering mauls. He is by far and away the highest quality player to come from the USA. Would be a starting lock for England if he was eligible, fantastic player.

I do agree that the ref had basically decided that the Saint's maul was dominant and gave them a large amount of leeway when it came to losing momentum.
I am still unsure as to the legality of both of Hartley's tries...

Could someone clarify:

1) Hartley was part of the ruck; he had his hands on the tackled player and his team-mate was bound on to him. Ashley Johnson was then bound onto the guy who was bound to Hartley.
This means Hartley is not allowed to play the ball? No?
2) Classic truck and trailer. I saw that Brian Moore was saying on twitter that if you disagree with this then you have to disagree with the legality of every driving maul. Which I cannot understand at all, seeing as with a driving maul (from a lineout for example) you do actually have time to tackle the ball carrier, and to set your own defense. Unless the defense has set up by binding onto the ball carrier, then it is not a maul but simply obstruction.
 
About the breakdown, the moments you are referrng to are those when Ash and co won penalties for Saints holding on. Everyone in the ground could see that they were coming because Johnson was just never dislodged. I don't think there was any controversy at all about such decisions.

I was actually talking about times when players like Vunipola were coming into the rucks from all angles. If you get a chance to watch a replay of the game, there is one clear example they pick out - Dowson beats Vunipola to a ruck off the back of a line out, but can't win the turnover as Vunipola clears him out at 90 degrees to where the gate is.

Johnson was an absolute monster all over the pitch, no problems with his contribution.

I also agree that the laws regarding the maul are poorly organised (then again, playing at wing or fullback myself many would argue I know nothing about them anyway!). Personally I was a big fan of the law they tried a season or two back where you were allowed to pull a maul down as long as you did it from an onside position and did so from above waist height. It meant the best teams could still use the maul effectively - but had to be very skilled and well drilled to do it - and defenses had some way of legally stopping the maul other than sheer brute force.

Can't begrudge Hartley for continually calling for the catch and drive though. It was clear the Wasps pack weren't as strong in the maul as ours and that the referee was going to allow our pack to play that way.

Not the sort of rugby I would want to be seeing from my side all season long, but it fit the conditions.
 
who is better?

In current terms, Clever and Wyles are both better, possibly LaValla too. Ngwenya and Luke Hume in the backs are also, although in their case they weren't produced in the USA. All better and of more use than Manoa.

In historical terms, Dan Lyle is acknowledged as the best American rugby player there has been. Dave Hodges and Emerick also notable ones who are of more use to a team than Manoa.
 
Seconds Sarries try shouldn't have been given - Joubert (I think it was?) was dragged fully in to touch before offloading - both feet on the blue (so it's easy to see him out) and he lobbed it back in and the scored a couple of phases after.
 
I disagree with every player you have mentioned with the exception of Lyle and Clever.
 
Seconds Sarries try shouldn't have been given - Joubert (I think it was?) was dragged fully in to touch before offloading - both feet on the blue (so it's easy to see him out) and he lobbed it back in and the scored a couple of phases after.

Yeah, really bad moment to give a try away as well.
 
I disagree with every player you have mentioned with the exception of Lyle and Clever.

Wyles is a very good player in his own right and actually is much more prominent with the USA than with Saracens, regularly making breaks and scoring tries. Ngwenya is a good finisher if a little limited skill set wise besides pace, Hume was the Eagles revelation last year so I agree to disagree on that. And crucially, all the players I mentioned are more useful than Manoa as they are not distrustful ***** off the pitch.
 

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