Are South Africa Missing out on players with huge potential ?

[goodNumber10]

Oh, so basically what you are saying is the RFU didn't do anything to get these players so far as to represent England. The RFU just sat back, relaxed and watched them walk into the England team??

No that's clearly not what i am saying.

I'm saying they don't proactively go out and hunt players in the same way Scotland and Ireland do.

All of Englands players are guys who have made the choice themselves and then come into the team, there is no one we have openly courted before they came to the English premiership.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Oh, so basically what you are saying is the RFU didn't do anything to get these players so far as to represent England. The RFU just sat back, relaxed and watched them walk into the England team??

Name a player who the RFU have actively courted from outside England... hint: you can't.

The apparently inevitable capping of Nathan Hughes makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable, he is in effect going to be our first "project player", even if the RFU didn't have any involvement in bringing him to the country.

 

[TRF_heineken]

No that's clearly not what i am saying.

I'm saying they don't proactively go out and hunt players in the same way Scotland and Ireland do.

All of Englands players are guys who have made the choice themselves and then come into the team, there is no one we have openly courted before they came to the English premiership.

Okay buddy, whatever makes you sleep at night.

the RFU is just a bit smarter in doing this to prevent bad publicity which has been one thing the ECB has had a lot of experience with.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Prove it.

You're talking ********, frankly.

 

[goodNumber10]

Okay buddy, whatever makes you sleep at night.

You clearly don't agree and have examples so prove me wrong then?

Personally, I don't recall anyone being brought to the premiership with the intention of giving them National honors - in fact some coaches have complained because they didn't buy them for England.

And even if they did court players, that doesn't change the fact everyone does so my point, which is to single out any specific nation is hugely hypocritical, still stands.

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Prove it.

You're talking ********, frankly.

I'm presuming that's not at me...

 

[TRF_heineken]

You're right, I can't prove it. But it doesn't change the perception people have with regards to poaching and the NH.

Perhaps the RFU was clever enough to hide behind their residency laws to make it easier to accomodate SH players. And this is not only applicable to Rugby.

 

[goodNumber10]

You're right, I can't prove it. But it doesn't change the perception people have with regards to poaching and the NH.

Perhaps the RFU was clever enough to hide behind their residency laws to make it easier to accomodate SH players. And this is not only applicable to Rugby.

you're saying the same thing a different way, either give us an example or stop casting assertions

 

[TRF_heineken]

You clearly don't agree and have examples so prove me wrong then?

Personally, I don't recall anyone being brought to the premiership with the intention of giving them National honors - in fact some coaches have complained because they didn't buy them for England.

And even if they did court players, that doesn't change the fact everyone does so my point, which is to single out any specific nation is hugely hypocritical, still stands.

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I'm presuming that's not at me...

Let's look at it another way... Why else would players from the SH move to the NH if they by some chance have a relative that can fat-track their residency?

Or Why else would clubs sign foreign players ahead of their own country's players when the foreign guys are between 18 and 24 years old and haven't been called up to their SH national team yet??

 

[goodNumber10]

Let's look at it another way... Why else would players from the SH move to the NH if they by some chance have a relative that can fat-track their residency?

Or Why else would clubs sign foreign players ahead of their own country's players when the foreign guys are between 18 and 24 years old and haven't been called up to their SH national team yet??

You're assuming the RFU has influence over the clubs recruitment - most of them are looking for people with a passport to get around the match day sqaud rules.

you're showing a very poor understanding of how the game in the NH is run.

 

[TRF_heineken]

You're assuming the RFU has influence over the clubs recruitment - most of them are looking for people with a passport to get around the match day sqaud rules.

you're showing a very poor understanding of how the game in the NH is run.

Maybe. But is it a coincidence that Barritt went to a club in England, instead of a club in Scotland/Ireland/Wales/France??? Surely some discussion behind closed doors at MI5 happened where a guy like Barritt was "recruited".

 

[goodNumber10]

Okay buddy, whatever makes you sleep at night.

the RFU is just a bit smarter in doing this to prevent bad publicity which has been one thing the ECB has had a lot of experience with.

Current international Squads and place of birth:

NZ:
Ben Franks - Australia
Laulala - American Samoa
Tu'ungafasi - Tong
Kaino - American Samoa
Kerr-BArlow - Australia
Fekitoa - Tonga
Naholo - Fiji
Tamanivalu - Fiji


Australia:
Moore - Saudi Arabia
Faulkner - New Zealand
Skelton - New Zealand
Pocock - Zaimbabwe
Genia - PNG
Cooper - New Zealand
Kerevi - Fiji
Kuridrani - Fiji
Lealifano - New Zealand
Naiyaravoro - Fiji
Speight - Fiji
Tomane - NEw Zealand

England:
Corbisiero - USA
M Vunipola - New Zealand
Kvesic - Germany
B Vunipola - Australia
Dickson - Germany
Barritt - RSA
Rokodoguni - Fiji
Yarde - St Lucia

Only one English player did not come through our age system..... so where is this concerted poaching plan you allude to delivering?

 

[j'nuh]

Is Zimbabwe missing out on players with huge potential?!

David Pocock
David Denton
Tonderai Chavhanga
Tendai Mtawarira
Nils Mordt
Brian Mujati
Takudzwa Ngwenya

etc. etc.

Can't keep them all.

Maybe. But is it a coincidence that Barritt went to a club in England, instead of a club in Scotland/Ireland/Wales/France??? Surely some discussion behind closed doors at MI5 happened where a guy like Barritt was "recruited".

No, Saracens specifically recruited heavily in South Africa because a South African head coach was recruited (after Johann Rupert, South African billionaire, bought up half the shares in Saracens):

"The arrival of Brendan Venter to the head coach role sparked major controversy. Shortly after arrival he triggered the culling of 18 players within 48 hours, known amongst fans as "the night of the long knives", this would then be followed up by the arrival of a number of South Africans to the squad. This caused the club to be strongly criticised as they were seen to be swaying away from being an English club. Some even began calling the club "Saffracens", due to their strong South African links (Saffa being slang for South African)."

Most of these players didn't/couldn't play for England. (e.g. De Kock, Brits and Hargreaves already had SA caps.)

 

[Sonic Kiwi]

Current international Squads and place of birth:

NZ:
Ben Franks - Australia
Laulala - American Samoa
Tu'ungafasi - Tong
Kaino - American Samoa
Kerr-BArlow - Australia
Fekitoa - Tonga
Naholo - Fiji
Tamanivalu - Fiji


Australia:
Moore - Saudi Arabia
Faulkner - New Zealand
Skelton - New Zealand
Pocock - Zaimbabwe
Genia - PNG
Cooper - New Zealand
Kerevi - Fiji
Kuridrani - Fiji
Lealifano - New Zealand
Naiyaravoro - Fiji
Speight - Fiji
Tomane - NEw Zealand

England:
Corbisiero - USA
M Vunipola - New Zealand
Kvesic - Germany
B Vunipola - Australia
Dickson - Germany
Barritt - RSA
Rokodoguni - Fiji
Yarde - St Lucia

Only one English player did not come through our age system..... so where is this concerted poaching plan you allude to delivering?

If you don't know your past then you'll never know your history.

Dave Gallaher springs to mind.

I'm more than happy to welcome Dave as an honorary Kiwi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Gallaher

 

[ncurd]

Can we really count Roko? I mean he's technically a serving member of the British army and got discovered playing for them....I'd hardly call that close to poached.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Is Zimbabwe missing out on players with huge potential?!

David Pocock
David Denton
Tonderai Chavhanga
Tendai Mtawarira
Nils Mordt
Brian Mujati
Takudzwa Ngwenya

etc. etc.

Can't keep them all.


No, Saracens specifically recruited heavily in South Africa because a South African head coach was recruited (after Johann Rupert, South African billionaire, bought up half the shares in Saracens):

"The arrival of Brendan Venter to the head coach role sparked major controversy. Shortly after arrival he triggered the culling of 18 players within 48 hours, known amongst fans as "the night of the long knives", this would then be followed up by the arrival of a number of South Africans to the squad. This caused the club to be strongly criticised as they were seen to be swaying away from being an English club. Some even began calling the club "Saffracens", due to their strong South African links (Saffa being slang for South African)."

Most of these players didn't/couldn't play for England. (e.g. De Kock, Brits and Hargreaves already had SA caps.)

The pacific isles are losing a good few talent themselfs

Fiji:
Seta Tamanivalu (NZ)
Waisake Naholo (NZ)
Henry Speight (AUS)
Tevita Kuridrani (AUS)
Samu Kerevi (AUS)
Taqele Naiyaravoro (AUS)
Semesa Rokoduguni (ENG)
Noa Nakaitaci (FRA)
Samuela Vunisa (ITA)
Joe Rokocoko (NZ)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (NZ)
Lote Tuqiri (AUS)
Radike Samo (AUS)
David Raikuna (NZ)
Manoa Vosawai (ITA)
Seta Tuilevuka (USA)

Tonga:
Ofa Tu'ungafasi (NZ)
Malakai Fekitoa (NZ)
Taulupe Faletau (WAL)
Christian Loamanu (JPN)
Lopeti Timani (AUS)
Tolu Latu (AUS)
Frank Halai (NZ)
Pauliasi Manu (NZ)
Alfie Mafi (AUS)
Sitaleki Timani (AUS)
Toetu'u Taufa (JPN)
Siate Tokolahi (NZ)
Ma'afu Fia (NZ)
Toutai Kefu (AUS)

Samoa:
Mils Muliaina (NZ)
Manu Tuilagi (ENG)
John Schwalger (NZ)
Chris Masoe (NZ)
Casey Laulala (NZ)
Isaia Toeava (NZ)
Milford Keresoma (NZ)
Ope Peleseuma (NZ)
Rodney So'oialo (NZ)

American Samoa:
Nepo Laulala (NZ)
Jerome Kaino (NZ)
Alex Tulou (NZ)

Papua New Guinea:
Will Genia (AUS)
Scott Daruda (AUS)

and i'm 100% sure there are more that could be added to the list

 

[goodNumber10]

Can we really count Roko? I mean he's technically a serving member of the British army and got discovered playing for them....I'd hardly call that close to poached.

that's why i didn't put him down, i kind of equated that to coming through our system.

 

[Raggs]

Nathan Hughes came to England because he was refused a senior contract with the blues. Planned on getting married and having kids (judging what has happened) and academy wages were cutting it.

No-one could have known that an academy player from the blues was going to become the best 8 in the AP, RFU certainly wouldn't have had anything to do with it.

He'll definitely be a poach (will have played most his pro rugby in England though), but no way could he be considered a project player. It's just not really something that happens in England due to the setup between clubs and union. The RFU couldn't get involved on behalf of a single club, otherwise all the clubs would want the same. It's why there was all that fuss from the other clubs when it was suggested the RFU were paying some of Burgess' transfer fees.

 

[j'nuh]

edit: wrong thread

 

[Sonic Kiwi]

The pacific isles are losing a good few talent themselfs

Fiji:
Seta Tamanivalu (NZ)
Waisake Naholo (NZ)
Henry Speight (AUS)
Tevita Kuridrani (AUS)
Samu Kerevi (AUS)
Taqele Naiyaravoro (AUS)
Semesa Rokoduguni (ENG)
Noa Nakaitaci (FRA)
Samuela Vunisa (ITA)
Joe Rokocoko (NZ)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (NZ)
Lote Tuqiri (AUS)
Radike Samo (AUS)

Tonga:
Ofa Tu'ungafasi (NZ)
Malakai Fekitoa (NZ)
Taulupe Faletau (WAL)
Christian Loamanu (JPN)
Lopeti Timani (AUS)
Tolu Latu (AUS)
Frank Halai (NZ)
Pauliasi Manu (NZ)
Alfie Mafi (AUS)
Sitaleki Timani (AUS)

Samoa:
Mils Muliaina (NZ)
Manu Tuilagi (ENG)
John Schwalger (NZ)

American Samoa:
Nepo Laulala (NZ)
Jerome Kaino (NZ)
Alex Tulou (NZ)

Papua New Guinea:
Will Genia (AUS)

and i'm 100% sure there are more that could be added to the list

How many players in the Scottish Isles are you missing out on?

You do realise that NZ is in the South Pacific don't you?

Murray Field was AWESOME

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Zimbabwe could've a hell of a pack really when you think about it:

1) Beast
2) ?
3) Mujati
4) Mike Williams
5) Armonld
6) Ewers
7) Pocock
8) Denton

Find a good hooker and that pack would be up there in terms of fire power.