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All Blacks Tri-nations squad 2011

Yeah you guys are both right actually regarding his style of player probably never being in the frame for a world cup year. Defense and low error rates win the cup I guess not game breaking players.

Unfortunately I think that is the case. One of the key things to consider too is where (and when) the RWC will be played... if we were playing on some of the hard fields in South Africa I would be much more likely to consider someone like Ranger, who thrives in an open game. In all likelihood the field/weather conditions aren't going to be ideal for open running rugby; conditions like this favour the low error rate/ high work rate players rather than more expansive (and perhaps more error prone) players.
 
Loose Forwards: Jerome Kaino, Adam Thompson, Liam Messam, Kieren Read, Richie McCaw
Very annoying picks. If you are going to bring in a lock that covers blindside, why in the name of christ leave out an extra openside? Every single player named can cover blindside flanker and openside including McCaw. So what does Henry and co do? Ignore Daniel Braid (the guy they convinced to come over from Queensland to back up McCaw) and Matt Todd who is arguably the form openside flanker at the moment. I thought Thompson looked well tired towards the end of the competition, which is understandable considering his form in the first 4-5 games but frankly I'd have picked up Victor Vito or an Openside flanker over him. If this is the squad they take to the RWC, we better pray McCaw doesn't get hurt, because despite what some people think, Thompson has never played well as an openside flanker.


I too am not convinced by the selection of Thomson as a back up

Perhaps they think he will do the job because of the number of ball steals and turnovers he was getting for the Highlanders at the breakdown in the early part of the season. However, a few weeks ago in a discussion with Ian Jones and Josh Kronfeld, both of them made the point that he was getting those turnovers while he was playing blindside flanker.. Now admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of the Highlanders this year, but to me Jones and Kronfeld's point means he is either getting turnovers when the opposition are running the short-side, or, as I think is more likely the case, he has been getting them when he has been arriving at midfield breakdowns slightly "later" (we're' talking fractions of a second here) than the openside, and pilfering the ball after his team-mates already have his team dominantly going forward.

Just because he is pilfering the ball playing 6, it doesn't necessarily follow that he will be able to do the same thing at 7, and nick, I think that backs up your point about his not having played 7 very well.
 
I can see where you guys are going with the above points on Thomson, but the other options aren't any better I don't think. Todd isn't ready yet, he is too small for international footy. Tests are far more physical than Super rugby or ITM and I can see him being outmuscled; not only when going for turnovers but also when carrying the ball (two things incidentally that Tomson and Messam excell at). I actually think Luke Braid has had a better season than Todd.

On a tangent; Todd seems to get the benefit of the doubt due to playing for the Crusaders that players such as Mark Robinson (the centre) Scott Hamilton, Caleb Ralph, Sam Broomhall, Razor Robertson etc have benefitted from in years past. I doubt any of them would've made higher honours had they played for any other team. This is why I'm a bit sceptical on Todd, he needs to have an excellent season (rather than just a decent one) to oust test experienced players like Thomson and Messam.
 
Props
Is Crocket injured? I guess I am a bit confused as to what exactly the injury standby means. I'd have him there ahead of Woodcock if avaiable as first choice loose head.

Hooker
While Elliot can feel a bit hard done by I don't think this matters overly much as Mealamu will in all probability see the lion's share of game time and rightly so.

Locks
Spot on IMO. Hoeata was immense this season and Williams did more than enough to reclaim his place among the Crusaders lock partners

Loosies
I think Thomson is a bit lucky to get in as I don't think he would do well in the ABs and went a bit off the boil towards the end of the season after a great start. He really only comes to the fore in very loose games IMO. Todd should have been there as specialist back-up. Otherwise Vito was next in line IMO.

Halves
Spot on again at 9 but with the question as to Carter's back-up still not answered IMO. That said I have no idea what to expect from Slade but unless Carter gets injured I doubt this even matters.

Centers
I guess the selectors see Toeava as a wing/fullback rather than a fullback centre with 4 other centers there in Nonu, Smith, SBW and Kahui. Personally I'd have dropped Kahui and picked another specialist wing with 3 specialist centers and Toeava as cover. Nonu and Smith have not been as dominant/dangerous as in the past but I expect they'll shine again in a black jersey. SBW has still to be tested at test level in a tight game but he seems to have the temperament for big occasions.

Outbacks
This is where I think the selectors MIGHT have dropped the ball but they probably, definately, know a lot more than I do LOL. Muliaina has, like so many Springboks, looked his age a tad at times. Solid and experienced but not the best bet probably. Gear has not been the force he has been in previous seasons. Maybe that was because of the Hurricanes in general having had a bad season but still with the options NZ have in this area.. I am not convinced. While Guildford has had a reasonable season I think he is only there because he played for the 'Saders and others would/could have done much better with the opportunities he has had. With Dagg and Toeava I think both should be there. Dagg has shown in a AB jersey that he is a class player and did so with the Crusaders as well prior to injury. So too Toeava and though both have been out of the S15 for a while I think it is the best option to bet on these two to pick up where they have left off. They'd be my bets for the 15/22 spots. The big casualties for me have been Sivivatu and Jane both of whom have been massive for the AB's. Jane has always done a lot better in black at 14 than with the 'Canes at 15 IMO and with the overall bad form of the 'Canes I'd think he would still be a good option while Sivivatu had shown some form coming back form injury IMO. Exceptionally dangerous on the counter and kick-return running and creates more than he finishes. Also if there was room for someone coming in from the fringes I'd have thought both maitland and Smith were better bets than at least Guildford.

So to some up
Lucky
Woodcock
Flynn
Thomson
Kahui
Guildford
Muliaina

Unlucky
Crocket
Todd
Vito
Jane
Sivivatu
Maitland
Smith

Not too many points to be upset about though all considered. Not as much as other nations and ITO starters at least.
 
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For any doubting Toeava here are a few youtube clips which are absolutely epic!







Toeava is insane. He breaks so many tackles and if you watch that third video you will see that he does have a good defensive game as well.

Another really good one, such a threat, it also looks like this season he has reduced a lot of his errors.

 
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guys just remember the 3n team is not cecessarily the RWC squad....AB have a
contract the field the best team in the 3N...so out of this group you will get
players that will be in the WC squad...then there will be players that were
either injured in the S15 or players that did not perform that Henry wants to
test at the level of the 3N to see if they are ready...then i'm also sure there
are players that were so brilliant in the S15 that they are automatically in the
RWC squad...either they are injured at the moment or being rested...Toeava comes
to mind....
 
Just read Kahui has tweaked a hamstring and is injured again.. some players are just massively injury prone. Surely we can't afford to take a risk on the guy in the WC with the squad rules.
 
Props
Is Crocket injured? I guess I am a bit confused as to what exactly the injury standby means. I'd have him there ahead of Woodcock if avaiable as first choice loose head.

It is a bit weird. Henry has named a top squad of 30, but 4 of these players are carrying injuries (Woodcock, Gear, Toeava, Dagg) - these 4 players will probably miss the first few matches, but will come back half-way through the tri-nations. The injury standby players (Crockett, Ben Smith, Sivivatu, Jane) are included in the squad while these players recover from injury. Crockett will likely get a few chances at the start of the Tri-nations, but at this stage (assuming he regains full fitness) Woodcock still appears to be NZ's first choice loosehead prop.

Halves
Spot on again at 9 but with the question as to Carter's back-up still not answered IMO. That said I have no idea what to expect from Slade but unless Carter gets injured I doubt this even matters.
You will get brillance from Slade :)
Henry has stated that Carters backup will start at least one of the tri-nations tests, so we we should get to see him get some test rugby before the RWC.

Outbacks
This is where I think the selectors MIGHT have dropped the ball but they probably, definately, know a lot more than I do LOL. Muliaina has, like so many Springboks, looked his age a tad at times. Solid and experienced but not the best bet probably. Gear has not been the force he has been in previous seasons. Maybe that was because of the Hurricanes in general having had a bad season but still with the options NZ have in this area.. I am not convinced. While Guildford has had a reasonable season I think he is only there because he played for the 'Saders and others would/could have done much better with the opportunities he has had. With Dagg and Toeava I think both should be there. Dagg has shown in a AB jersey that he is a class player and did so with the Crusaders as well prior to injury. So too Toeava and though both have been out of the S15 for a while I think it is the best option to bet on these two to pick up where they have left off. They'd be my bets for the 15/22 spots. The big casualties for me have been Sivivatu and Jane both of whom have been massive for the AB's. Jane has always done a lot better in black at 14 than with the 'Canes at 15 IMO and with the overall bad form of the 'Canes I'd think he would still be a good option while Sivivatu had shown some form coming back form injury IMO. Exceptionally dangerous on the counter and kick-return running and creates more than he finishes. Also if there was room for someone coming in from the fringes I'd have thought both maitland and Smith were better bets than at least Guildford.

The probelm with the outside backs is that New Zealand has some many good options to choose from, and many of them are at a very similar level. Who the AB's selectors picked will very much have come down to what their gameplan is. I'd say Guildford has had more than just a resonable season; Crusaders coach Todd Blackadder suggested recently that he has been the Crusaders best back (impressive when you consider the rest of the Crusaders backline). He did benifit from being on the end of a strong Crusaders backline but he took his chances very well, and often set up tries for others. His ability to put pressure on the oppostion (often through chasing kicks) set up numerous try scoring oppurtunities for the Crusaders, and on a number of occasions he saved the Crusaders with some phenomenal cover defense (the tackle on Fourie in the semi was a prime example). I'm not writing off Muliaina yet either; everyone was writing him off before last years international season, but he turned around and had a huge season.

Everyone has a different opinion on who the five outside backs should be, and most of of the opinions are equally valid. If Steveskiez7 was the selector he would have picked Maitland over Guildford, http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/member.php?42455-Steveskiez7if Whitewolf was the selector he would have picked Jane and Maitland over Dagg and Toeava, if donmcdazzle was the selector he would have picked Ranger over Guildford, if Larksea was the selector he would have picked Maitland and Sivivatu over Dagg and Gear, if Nickdnz was the selector he would have cloned Hosea Gear and picked him 5 times, and I was a selector I probably would have left Gear out altogether, and Nickdnz would have been on the first plane down to Dunedin to hunt me down.....

I can see where you guys are going with the above points on Thomson, but the other options aren't any better I don't think. Todd isn't ready yet, he is too small for international footy. Tests are far more physical than Super rugby or ITM and I can see him being outmuscled; not only when going for turnovers but also when carrying the ball (two things incidentally that Tomson and Messam excell at). I actually think Luke Braid has had a better season than Todd.

On a tangent; Todd seems to get the benefit of the doubt due to playing for the Crusaders that players such as Mark Robinson (the centre) Scott Hamilton, Caleb Ralph, Sam Broomhall, Razor Robertson etc have benefitted from in years past. I doubt any of them would've made higher honours had they played for any other team. This is why I'm a bit sceptical on Todd, he needs to have an excellent season (rather than just a decent one) to oust test experienced players like Thomson and Messam.

I have noticed Todd struggle occasionally in the physical stuff, but the problem is that Thomson struggles just as much (if not worse) than Todd. Thomson is ideal in an open flowing game, but in a tight, forward orientated battle he is completely annoymous. He often has very poor body postion when running with the ball, so easily gets driven back at times. While I agree Todd may not be ready to play 7 at test level, I'd argue Thomson isn't ready yet to play 7 and Super Rugby level! I was actually starting to favour Luke Braid too as the season progessed, as he has a strong physical edge to his game. I'm not actually convinced that Thomson will be the primary backup to McCaw in the current squad in any case; Henry has suggested that Thomson, Messem, and Read are all potential options at 7 (the Read option doesn't make much sense though, as Messem would have to play 8, and he is a better 7 than Read...). After watching this Super Rugby season I wouldn't feel too uncomfortable with Messem at 7.

guys just remember the 3n team is not cecessarily the RWC squad....AB have a
contract the field the best team in the 3N...so out of this group you will get
players that will be in the WC squad...then there will be players that were
either injured in the S15 or players that did not perform that Henry wants to
test at the level of the 3N to see if they are ready...then i'm also sure there
are players that were so brilliant in the S15 that they are automatically in the
RWC squad...either they are injured at the moment or being rested...Toeava comes
to mind....

Henry has stated on several occasion that ideally the Tri-nations squad will be the same as the RWC squad. Unless there are injures, players outside the 34-man squad are unlikely to be able to force there way into the final RWC squad, with the exception of the injured Anthony Boric. If Boric can prove he is fit in time for the RWC he is bound to be in the squad.
 
the coaches also have more information about the players than we do. They know how far away Dagg is and how his fitness is. They knew Sivivatu's fitness wasn't good, it's only just come out that he and Weepu hare going to spend time with the 7's guys to work on their fitness because it tested very poorly. I can't honestly say I know right now if Dagg can jog or Run 50% power or what. I also have no idea where Toeava is at, my understanding is that he has been training fine and has just had to stear clear of contact, but I dont know that for sure.

That sort of information is pretty critical in picking a squad.

There is a lot of potnetial for change in this squad depending on how players evolve before the WC.

If Dagg or Toeava don't come back well that will open the door for Ben Smith and Cory Jane

Tony Woodcock needs to impress before the WC or he will be replaced with Crockett

If's sivivatu's fitness improves enough ( I think it would have to be quite a bit) he may very well force his way into the WC squad.

I think Thompson in particular needs to show he can cover 7 well or he may lose his spot to a specialist 7, the coaches will be monitoring Dan Braid's progress in ITM cup.

Colin Slade will need to take the oportunity he will get to impress or he will could his spot to Cruden. Heck maybe even Donald if he has a blinder in ITM cup but that chance is slim.

And surely once Boric is fit he will come into the squad, will be a shame for Hoeata but Boric is an awesome lock and very experienced now too.

Also for me there are some important factors which need to fall into place for this squad to work.

1, Mills needs to step up and get back into his test form after a quiet super15, exactly like he has done for the last two years.

2, Hosea Gear needs to start where he finished for the AB's last year and prove himself during the tri nations. He hasn't proved himself against SA or AUS yet.

3, Liam Messam has had two awesome seasons and he was very good against Scotland on the EoY tour. He's never really been given a chance in tri nations. If he plays well it will solve a lot of backup/bench issues. Loose forwards are a traditional strength of New Zealand and to win the WC I think we need to have the best loosies in the world.

4, Obviously McCaw needs gametime and needs to stay injury free. He's so very starved of gametime and looks short of a yard of pace and his hands are letting him down. Gametime and injury free is all he needs to get back into the grove.

5, Woodcock needs to come back from injury for the All Blacks like he did last year. Crockett is great but test matches are a different story - and Woodcock knows more about being a test prop at the highest level than maybe anyone else in the world.

6, I think this is the 100th time I've said this. Getting Weepu match fit is critical to NZ's world cup chances.
 
3, Liam Messam has had two awesome seasons and he was very good against Scotland on the EoY tour. He's never really been given a chance in tri nations. If he plays well it will solve a lot of backup/bench issues. Loose forwards are a traditional strength of New Zealand and to win the WC I think we need to have the best loosies in the world.

6, I think this is the 100th time I've said this. Getting Weepu match fit is critical to NZ's world cup chances.

Agree with both of these points. Messam could be pretty important to make an impact off the bench in tight games. Aussie have Higginbotham to do that (or Elsom if they start Higginbotham) so we need Messam to do the same. I think he will go well, as you've pointed out Larksea he has had an awesome season.

The Weepu point is crucial too, we really do need him to be at the top of his game.
 
For any doubting Toeava here are a few youtube clips which are absolutely epic!

Toeava is insane. He breaks so many tackles and if you watch that third video you will see that he does have a good defensive game as well.

Another really good one, such a threat, it also looks like this season he has reduced a lot of his errors.

The game in which me impressed me the most was his ITM Cup return. Take a look at his dedication after injury especially at 3:11, but also in setting up all the other tries.

 
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Henry has stated on several occasion that ideally the Tri-nations squad will be the same as the RWC squad. Unless there are injures, players outside the 34-man squad are unlikely to be able to force there way into the final RWC squad, with the exception of the injured Anthony Boric. If Boric can prove he is fit in time for the RWC he is bound to be in the squad.

then what about guys like rene ranger or toeava??? what about alby mathewson??? what about cruden??? or luke mCalister as carters backup???
 
then what about guys like rene ranger or toeava??? what about alby mathewson??? what about cruden??? or luke mCalister as carters backup???

Toeava is in the squad, all the rest are out. McAlister has even stopped training for his ITM cup squad, I guess he'll be coming to France soon.
 
then what about guys like rene ranger or toeava??? what about alby mathewson??? what about cruden??? or luke mCalister as carters backup???

Unless there are injuries I can't see Ranger/Mathewson/Cruden making the RWC squad.
 
Unless there are injuries I can't see Ranger/Mathewson/Cruden making the RWC squad.

serious :O Ranger out??? wow....

i guess the AB do have talent if they can leave out a guy like Ranger.....
 
serious :O Ranger out??? wow....

i guess the AB do have talent if they can leave out a guy like Ranger.....

It isn't so much about talent, it's more about the style of rugby for the WC. I don't necessarily agree with it but as others have posted the games are likely to be in wet conditions and low error rates often decide these close games so someone like Ranger who is a bit looser may not fit into those plans.
 
It isn't so much about talent, it's more about the style of rugby for the WC. I don't necessarily agree with it but as others have posted the games are likely to be in wet conditions and low error rates often decide these close games so someone like Ranger who is a bit looser may not fit into those plans.

ok, i see what you mean...butthen why is SBW in the team...he is also a lose caonnon at times :D esp those offloads sometimes :?

they might cost us.....
 
ok, i see what you mean...butthen why is SBW in the team...he is also a lose caonnon at times :D esp those offloads sometimes :?

they might cost us.....

I know! SBW and his offloading are a bad example for the kids!
 
You try and tell a kid that who is growing up pulling these offloads off and as they get older they will develop the skill probably better than SBW.. How can it be a bad example when he has put so many players over the tryline with his offloads??.... that is what you want from your centres, someone to create space on the outside and be able to distribute.
 

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