All Blacks' centre pairing...

[Tim stafff]

Sonny Bill Williams over Ma'a Nonu. Ma'a Nonu got the most yellow cards last super 14 with 10 in one season double that of Schalk Burger who came second with 5

 

[Darwin]

Personally I can't see how you can go past the SBW/Smith combo. There is no doubt Nonu has improved over the last few years, but SBW just seems to be at a different level at the moment. In my opinion Conrad Smith is the best centre in world rugby, so he would be in my starting lineup every game.

I'd be surprised if Fruean makes the RWC squad - Nonu, SBW, and Smith are all but certainties, meaning there is at most only one midfield spot remaining (or none if they consider Toeava as midfield cover). Freuan has played well this year, but he still does have defensive issues, and can still go missing at times in games. Like Larksea, I think Kahui is probably the most likely to get this spot, as he has always performed well for the AB's, while Ranger also has experience with the AB's.

In terms of a RWC backline I'd look at:

Weepu (I'd either have Weepu starting with Mathewson on the bench, or Cowan starting with Weepu on the bench... not sure which way I'd go yet)
Carter
Gear (though he needs to have a strong remainder of the Super Rugby season to secure his spot, as Henry and co. are not huge fans. If Sivivatu gets close to top form he will likely take this spot)
SBW
Smith
Toeava (Incumbant right wing, and has been on fire throughout the Super Rugby season - don't know how you could leave him out!)
Muliaina

Mathewson
Slade (assuming he fires for the Highlanders... I suspect Henry and co. will pick MacAlister)
Jane/Nonu/Kahui

 

[Bogdam]

Nonu with Smithon on the field and SBW with Fruen on the bench!!!!!!but what about mcalister!!!???? he was a good inside center in my opinion!!!!he`s strong and has a good kicking skills!!!!

 

[Tim stafff]

Sonny Bill Williams and Conrad Smith is the way to go.

 

[lance2010]

Sonny Bill Williams over Ma'a Nonu. Ma'a Nonu got the most yellow cards last super 14 with 10 in one season double that of Schalk Burger who came second with 5

But how many has Ma'a got since his return after the world cup? He is different when he's in the All Blacks.SBW is a freak and he will be there but i see him as a back up to Nonu/Smith

 

[FlukeArtist]

the team i'd like to see is:

Weepu
Carter
Ranger
SBW (though still not convinced Nonu shouldn't start)
Smith
Jane
Dagg

Back res: Cowan, Nonu, Toeava

 

[Shaggy]

lol ... I was going to suggest Jared Payne as an outsider until today's news that he'd signed with Ulster

 

[Aedaphon]

Well it's good to see other people were thinking about this other than myself.

Something I don't think many people have considered is the 10, 12, 13 Crusaders link the ABs would have with SBW and Fruean on the pitch? I do think that Conrad Smith is an incredible player but if the spine of the team has a full Super 15 season under the belt before world cup they might have an edge on Nonu and Smith.

It's difficult because really they're just two class centre pairings and personally I would say that keeping a club pairing (as shown by England's half backs) can give the side a (slight) advantage over one where there's constant chopping and changing (see France).

And this started as a centres only thread but I think I might as well list the full set of international level back line options seeing as it seems pretty popular...

Scrum-Half:
Weepu (He'll have to work for it though), Cowan, Ellis, Matthewson,

Fly-Half:
Carter, Macalister (my 2nd choice preference), Donald, Slade (Weepu as the last resort cover?)

Centre:
Smith, SBW, Nonu, Fruean (Ranger, Toeava, Macalister and even Payne cover)

Wing: (Oh god there are so many)
Gear, Sivivatu, Guildford, Masaga, Ranger, Toeava, Rokocoko, Maitland, Dagg (there's really no need for ANY cover here)

Fullback:
Muliaina, Jane (Dagg and Toeava covering)

That's just about enough for 3 back lines. That's actually quite upsetting for me coming from the NH.

 

[nickdnz]

Just a question Nick , why did you pick Joe on the wing? In my opinion he is wayyyy past his best...

On another note, sure smith is safe but I really think Fruean is ready. Hes a bigger faster stronger player and doesnt give anything away to smith .

I picked Rokocoko because I love him. He's only 27, and was the leading try scorer of the S14 last season. He's got an amazing work rate by a winger, and he was still the quickest winger in the AB camp last year, despite the average try scoring. He has shown he can break a game, and if he can get some of his form back, then it'll be brilliant. That, and I would love him to beat Doug Howlett's try scoring record. I can see problems with picking him, but I'd do it just on faith.

Physically I agree with Fruean being better than Smith. He's faster, stronger and more athletic, but to say he does not give up anything on Smith is rubbish. Smith's work rate is unquestionable, his defense impenetrable and his timing is impossible. He's brightest rugby player in the world, who runs the backline defense like a well oiled machine, while creating oppertunities every which way. He's certainly harder to appreciate than the 106kg centres, but he's still got a lot more experience and technique. Almost any one would have him as one of, if not the greatest centre in the world. It's also worth a note that Fruean success is partly due to Carter running a backline, where as Smith is working with Kirkpatrick...

 

[donmcdazzle]

I'd take SBW over Nonu any day of the week. Nonu is an idiot of a person in general and this is reflected on the field. Gives away so many dumb penalties and does dumb things in general.

Fruean has physical abilities Smith could only dream of, but Smith is proven to be a top performer. He too is in horrible form so needs to sort that out sooner rather than later. I'm sure Fruean would be fine as a wing, Nonu played a fair few games there and is slower. AAC has played a lot at fullback and wing for Aus and Fruean is quicker so his pace is not an issue. One of those 4 look destined to miss out though as there is a few guys who can cover centre/wing. Ranger has an X factor about him, seems to just make things happen. Agree with the above point about him being amazing at offloads, he absolutely dominated in last years ITM cup. Kahui needs to play every game of the campaign from here on in and play well to prove he is not injury prone. Going to be an uphill battle for him to make it I think given the talent we have in the centre/wing dept.

Also Larksea to even suggest Leonard is in the picture shows your bizarre Waikato bias impairs your ability for objectivity, the guy is at best about 6th in line. Ellis is playing the best rugby of his career this season, his option taking and speed of clearance has been almost faultless.

It's hardly even a stretch to suggest the AB's could just be the Crusaders with Mealamu in for Flynn and Kaino in for Whitelock with McCaw back in there.

 

[Aedaphon]

I would agree with everyone here that Smith is an absolute ghost in attack and a wall in defence. However Fruean and SBW are a dynamic pairing and I'd like to see them tested even if it's undeniable Smith should be starting 13 in ANY line-up.

 

[dan the man]

Based on form alone I'd pick:

9 - Ellis
10 - Carter
11 - Isaia Toeava
12 - SBW
13 - Fruean
14 - Maitland
15 - Dagg

Hmmm... only one player who's not a Crusader, I think that the selectors will actually go with

9 - Weepu/Cowan (depending on fitness)
10 - Carter
11 - Gear
12 - SBW
13 - Smith
14 - Jane
15 - Muliaina

 

[donmcdazzle]

I picked Rokocoko because I love him. He's only 27, and was the leading try scorer of the S14 last season. He's got an amazing work rate by a winger, and he was still the quickest winger in the AB camp last year, despite the average try scoring. He has shown he can break a game, and if he can get some of his form back, then it'll be brilliant. That, and I would love him to beat Doug Howlett's try scoring record. I can see problems with picking him, but I'd do it just on faith.

Physically I agree with Fruean being better than Smith. He's faster, stronger and more athletic, but to say he does not give up anything on Smith is rubbish. Smith's work rate is unquestionable, his defense impenetrable and his timing is impossible. He's brightest rugby player in the world, who runs the backline defense like a well oiled machine, while creating oppertunities every which way. He's certainly harder to appreciate than the 106kg centres, but he's still got a lot more experience and technique. Almost any one would have him as one of, if not the greatest centre in the world. It's also worth a note that Fruean success is partly due to Carter running a backline, where as Smith is working with Kirkpatrick...

There is no way Joe is quicker than Guildford, Maitland, Gear. He is a shadow of his former self and needs to be put out to pasture. Henry has a weird thing with picking him though so who knows he probably will make it while guys like Ranger, Maitland and Masaga will miss out. Honestly when was the last time Joe scored a try like either of the ones Masaga scored the other week? Or the one Ranger set up for Stanley against the Crusaders? About 2006.

 

[Darwin]

Based on form alone I'd pick:

9 - Ellis
10 - Carter
11 - Isaia Toeava
12 - SBW
13 - Fruean
14 - Maitland
15 - Dagg

Hmmm... only one player who's not a Crusader, I think that the selectors will actually go with

9 - Weepu/Cowan (depending on fitness)
10 - Carter
11 - Gear
12 - SBW
13 - Smith
14 - Jane
15 - Muliaina

I agree with most of your 'form' backline, however, I don't know how you could possibly pick Dagg on form - sure he's broken the odd tackle (but not really many), but he has been error prone all year. In my opinion Toeava is by far the form NZ fullback this year (though I see you have him listed as a wing), followed by Ben Smith. Indeed I'd even pick Nanai-Williams on form over Dagg...

 

[Aedaphon]

Seeing as this has progressed from just being about the centre-pairing (as far as I'm aware)
May I shamelessly plug an (intentionally) controversial thread I started just now: http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/...ompete-with-any-NH-side-s&p=386420#post386420

 

[Larksea]

I'd take SBW over Nonu any day of the week. Nonu is an idiot of a person in general and this is reflected on the field. Gives away so many dumb penalties and does dumb things in general.

Fruean has physical abilities Smith could only dream of, but Smith is proven to be a top performer. He too is in horrible form so needs to sort that out sooner rather than later. I'm sure Fruean would be fine as a wing, Nonu played a fair few games there and is slower. AAC has played a lot at fullback and wing for Aus and Fruean is quicker so his pace is not an issue. One of those 4 look destined to miss out though as there is a few guys who can cover centre/wing. Ranger has an X factor about him, seems to just make things happen. Agree with the above point about him being amazing at offloads, he absolutely dominated in last years ITM cup. Kahui needs to play every game of the campaign from here on in and play well to prove he is not injury prone. Going to be an uphill battle for him to make it I think given the talent we have in the centre/wing dept.

Also Larksea to even suggest Leonard is in the picture shows your bizarre Waikato bias impairs your ability for objectivity, the guy is at best about 6th in line. Ellis is playing the best rugby of his career this season, his option taking and speed of clearance has been almost faultless.

It's hardly even a stretch to suggest the AB's could just be the Crusaders with Mealamu in for Flynn and Kaino in for Whitelock with McCaw back in there.

I think my selection of leonard is more of a reflection of my disliking of Elis than my bias towards waikato. I have said many times lately that I think Elis in the first few rounds of the super15 is playing the best footy of his life and yes I do believe he's a front runner for All Black selection and Henry & co seem to like picking him and I think that has a lot to do with the fact he has an established combination with Carter at all levels. But also put his performances in perspective. He's playing behind easily the best forward pack of any of the NZ teams and he has the best 10 in the world playing outside him.

But for me that doesn't override the fact that when he puts an all black shirt on his clearance from the rucks is bordering on padestrian and Cowan isn't far off either. And up until last weekends game I would have had mathewson infront of leonard but that game showed a huge gap in the difference of kicking skill between the two players. Clearing the ball to the backs with speed is going to be critical to the effectiveness of the AB backline. Perfect example would be last season when the backline was stuttering with Cowan on the field then all of a sudden sparked into life when he was replaced by weepu in almost every game.

In general but not always (in both examples) to me elis seems to only decide what he's going to do with the ball when he's got his hands on it where leonard hunts in behind the forwards looking for quick ball and seems to decide what he's going to do with it before he gets it so when the ball arrives he executes the play straight away. That what can work out to be an extra few sec advantage for the 10 recieving the ball can change the game.

Come world cup time the AB's will be deadly from 10 - 15 who ever gets selected. But to take advantage of that we need 9's that feed them fast ball. and be able to kick well in conditions that suit.

Weepu has to be the man, I really believe he is as critical to the AB's success this year as anyone else. he's for sure out best 9. I'm worried that if he's not on the field and Cowan and Elis are backing him up the AB's backs aren't going to get the fast ball they deserve.

Also think you are being hard on leonard, if not for injury he would have been a much more regular selection in the AB's over the last few years. The last chance he had for the AB's was in 2009 I think? and he had to leave the field early after getting kicked in the head. Last year he was arguably the form 9 of the ITM cup untill that head clash that ruled him out for an extended period.

I think the fact you suggest leonard is 6th in line may show a direct bias against waikato/chiefs players.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

To deviate slightly, when is Weepu expected back?
He was looking the best 9 in the world before breaking his leg, would be a shame for him to miss out on the WC (though would benefit every other team)

 

[Larksea]

To deviate slightly, when is Weepu expected back?
He was looking the best 9 in the world before breaking his leg, would be a shame for him to miss out on the WC (though would benefit every other team)

for sure I've been keeping an eye on any news related to weepu, people may call me crazy for saying it but I think he is as critical to the AB's chances come world cup time as McCaw or Carter. I know it's a big call from someone who is so bias to waikato/chiefs players.

From what I've seen his is jogging laps and doing passing drills at hurricanes training but is not yet able to kick with his leg. He also looks really unfit which isn't a suprise.

NO idea on actual timeline but I cant imagine he will be back within the next 4-5 rounds. I think in maybe in ~3-4 weeks there will be more talk on when he may return.

Edit: he will be fit for world cup the critical thing will be to make sure he doesn't pick up another injury on his return as he wont have played in a long time and he will come into super rugby when teams/players are at their sharpest.

 

[dangandan]

i haven't been bothered to read too much of this thread, sorry, but why bother changing a midfield that has served the All Blacks so well? i'd say some extra dynamism on the bench with someone like SBW would be great to finish off a tired team.

also for those who doubt Rokocoko, well he hasn't done much wrong and when given the chance he can still score tries. he understands the All Black environment and is very much part of the team so i can't see Graham Henry ignoring him for the World Cup.

 

[Aedaphon]

i haven't been bothered to read too much of this thread, sorry, but why bother changing a midfield that has served the All Blacks so well? i'd say some extra dynamism on the bench with someone like SBW would be great to finish off a tired team.

also for those who doubt Rokocoko, well he hasn't done much wrong and when given the chance he can still score tries. he understands the All Black environment and is very much part of the team so i can't see Graham Henry ignoring him for the World Cup.

For a basic summary of the arguments:
1) SBW brings a lot more to the table than Nonu when it comes to dynamic play
2) SBW + Fruean play in a back line with Carter every week
3) Nonu is heavily penalised on a regular basis