A Political Thread

[Which Tyler]

Aye,
Do you want centre-left or do you want a Tory government should be a no brainer.
I can understand where they're coming from - people have an idealistic view of politics and fighting for what you believe in and never cowing down etc.etc.etc. but in the real world, especially in a political system like the one we have in this country, you have to make concessions and getting some of what you want is better than getting none of what you want.

It's the old addage - the left fall in love (and then back out of love again) - the right fall in line.

There's also the quote that I saw doing the rounds a lot this time that too many (especially on the left) see political afiliation like finding a spouse - search as long as you have to to find the one who matches everything you want them to - whilst in reality it's more like finding the right train - it might not be going quite where you want, but will be closer than the alternatives.

 

[Reiser99]

Gonna be interesting to see what happens - apparently labour is pretty comfortably the biggest party (members wise) in Europe. These members repeatedly voted for Corbyn and are unlikely to vote for a Blair-esque Tory-in-Red.
Awkward situation cause in this climate a real left wing party will not be elected, however you're never going to convince the member base to go against their beliefs and vote in someone they don't believe in and don't agree with.

It's not just party members, affliated unions and socialist societies can also vote. Also if it's like the last election people can sign up for a small fee. I wouldn't put it past some on the right to sign up and vote for the candidate they think will be easiest to beat. Overall it's geared up for another left leaving politician. Certainly Momentum and those on the far left aren't taking much responsibility and seem to be suggesting that the manifesto policies were individually good and that the real problem was so many people wanted Brexit. As I said earlier they seem to think they can convince the majority people to move to the far left and don't feel they need to meet them in the middle. If this continues they'll easily lose again. Need to move to the centre and if they really want to keep the idea of renationalisation alive then they should just pick 1 that will be easiest to show it can be done and change minds over renationalisation with some evidence.

As for who should lead it's tough. Starmer being a remainer might be irrelevant in 5 years depending on how Brexit goes. Certainly if Britain has left and is struggling to sign decent trade deals then surely that can't be put at anyone's door other than the tories. If we are still in some kind of transition situation then it possibly might have more impact. Starmer is clearly the centre candidate who might appeal more to those in the middle or the right. RLB will basically be Corbyn 2.0. Be interesting to see how much real power she'd have or if she was basically a puppet for the NEC and Momentum. Not sure about Angela Raynor, but seems to be further to the left than Starmer, but not sure how much further. Imagine she will need to do really well in hustings and cause a big upset. Phillips as Olyy said has been quite outspoken of Corbyn, so might not get the support of the unions and momentum. Also quite young, but that might be what Labour needs. Thornberry has had too many gaffs to be a serious contender. She's not Diane Abbott, but I think she'd be another weak link in a general election like Corbyn was.

 

[Reiser99]

It's the old addage - the left fall in love (and then back out of love again) - the right fall in line.

There's also the quote that I saw doing the rounds a lot this time that too many (especially on the left) see political afiliation like finding a spouse - search as long as you have to to find the one who matches everything you want them to - whilst in reality it's more like finding the right train - it might not be going quite where you want, but will be closer than the alternatives.

I think it's also a case of that the Conservatives told people what they wanted to hear, and gave people what they wanted (to an extent, mainly Brexit), where as Labour tried to convince everyone they were right. There was an Jonathan Pie sketch where he said that it was the Left that has been responsible for the increase in nationalism and people moving to the right, because they treat anyone who disagrees with them as wrong and often go further and say they are racist/facist etc... just because they hold different views. It's very confrontational and really puts voters off. Basically at the moment if you're not on the left your the enemy that needs to be confronted and if they shout loud enough then you'll realise your mistake.

 

[Which Tyler]

It's not just party members, affliated unions and socialist societies can also vote. Also if it's like the last election people can sign up for a small fee. I wouldn't put it past some on the right to sign up and vote for the candidate they think will be easiest to beat. Overall it's geared up for another left leaving politician. Certainly Momentum and those on the far left aren't taking much responsibility and seem to be suggesting that the manifesto policies were individually good and that the real problem was so many people wanted Brexit.

Yup, Momentum seem to hold a LOT of power within the labour party - and they'd rather lose with "far" left policies, than win with centre-left (by the standards of British politics).

Certainly if Britain has left and is struggling to sign decent trade deals then surely that can't be put at anyone's door other than the tories.

What about the last 3 years makes you think that?
There's no way on earth that the right &/ leavers will own their mistakes - they'll blame remainers for not believing in leave, the EU for looking after the interests of the EU, USA/India/Japan/Australia for being mean... aything to deflect from the possibility that they might have been wrong about "the easiest deal in history"

There was an Jonathan Pie sketch where he said that it was the Left that has been responsible for the increase in nationalism and people moving to the right, because they treat anyone who disagrees with them as wrong and often go further and say they are racist/facist etc... just because they hold different views.

Time to check my privilege.
I've seen a lot of comments from people on the right / leavers saying that everyone on the left / remainers are calling them racist or fascist - I've yet to see anyone actually doing so.
Of course, as a lefty remainer, that would be my privilege coming into play, though I do still wonder (and definitely object to "all lefties / remainers" )

What I have seen a number of times from leftie remainers is "not all leavers are racists, but all racists are leavers" - again though - privilege

 

[Reiser99]

What about the last 3 years makes you think that?
There's no way on earth that the right &/ leavers will own their mistakes - they'll blame remainers for not believing in leave, the EU for looking after the interests of the EU, USA/India/Japan/Australia for being mean... aything to deflect from the possibility that they might have been wrong about "the easiest deal in history"

Tbh as I was writing that I did think so. I guess in my mind there is no way they can blame remainers, but I'm sure leavers will rationalise it somehow.

 

[Reiser99]

Interesting article in the Independent on Friday.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hkrWi4bllwx5HmY4Hh7tobjC7QvATlXJx_HA3RbV1QlZQ

I'd be very interested in how this works. For example if you keep the right to vote then who would you be voting for as Britain will no longer elect MEPs and it would be unfair on one country to take the votes on it's own...

Other issue I see that if every person in Britain was to accept this offer then surely it's a huge advantage to Britain as all British Citizens could work and travel around Europe, whilst citizens of other European countries couldn't come to Britain (This is hypothetical I know many people won't accept it on principle). However I can easily see some leavers taking it so they can benefit at the expense of the EU.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I wish you hadn't linked/I hadn't read that article,
It's the hope that kills you

 

[Reiser99]

I wish you hadn't linked/I hadn't read that article,
It's the hope that kills you

Yeah, personally I would love this in theory, but I don't see it being this simple because as I said it feels like a very one sided offer that could easily be abused by Britain and tbh a bit of an own goal in terms of the negotiations.

 

[General Melchett]

Interesting article in the Independent on Friday.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hkrWi4bllwx5HmY4Hh7tobjC7QvATlXJx_HA3RbV1QlZQ

Do you know how old this article is? I couldn't see a date but recall reading something similar at least couple of years ago.

Edit: It's dated December 2016 so quite old.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think it's resurfaced because Jo Maugham/ the Good Law Project are petitioning to have it brought back to the table in January - never gonna happen

 

[Reiser99]

Do you know how old this article is? I couldn't see a date but recall reading something similar at least couple of years ago.

Edit: It's dated December 2016 so quite old.

Oh my bad, I just read the 9th December part...ignore then.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

My constituency not surprisingly was a Conservative hold. The MP increased his share of the vote by 1.4% and a majority of over 20,000 votes. Labour candidate in second lost almost 8% compared to 2017. Not surprisingly seeing as there is a large Jewish population in my constituency who were never, ever going to vote Labour with Corbyn as leader.

The Lib Dem Candidate I voted for was third and increased the LD's vote compared to 2017 by 7%. So not too bad. Although my vote made no difference, I can be happy that I voted with my conscience this time.

just over 70% turnout compared to those registered, so higher than the national average of 67%.

It will be interesting to see the breakdown of the national stats based on age and working background, to see if the 18-35 voters came out and where they voted.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

For mine:

Conservative hold,
3.1% gain (+826 votes)
Labour -7.3% (-4231 votes)
Lib Dems +5.8% (+2979 votes)




Saw this earlier:
18-24, 25-49,
50-64, 65+

Think it's funny how Liverpool, devoutly Anti-The Sun, vote labour - I know it's only a minor factor but it's a funny stat considering how much the Murdoch-media influence people.

 

[General Melchett]

Scary how much the oldies are so nationalistic and hate the EU. Those maps tell me the UK will rejoin when they all pop their clogs and Labour get a grip

 

[Brigantine]

Saw this earlier:
18-24, 25-49,
50-64, 65+

Look at Ceredigion there

Young people vote Labour
Age 25-64 people vote Lib Dem
Old people vote Tory...

And PC wins the seat by 6000+

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ceredigion is one that the Lib Dems lost from ******* over the students.
I went to University in Aberystwyth 2008 - 2012 and it was very comfortably Lib Dem until the coalition.

2010 election: 50% of votes (22% more than Plaid in 2nd)
2015: 35% of votes (8% more than Plaid)
2017: 2nd (.2% behind Plaid)
2019: 3rd place (20% behind Plaid)

 

[duncanb]

Look at Ceredigion there

Young people vote Labour
Age 25-64 people vote Lib Dem
Old people vote Tory...

And PC wins the seat by 6000+

Any evidence or just spurious comments , back with a source when posting information.
Its believable then otherwise just sour grapes.
I refrain from judgement allowing you post the source of this statement.
Aa generally interested to see if this correct.

 

[Reiser99]

For mine:

Conservative hold,
3.1% gain (+826 votes)
Labour -7.3% (-4231 votes)
Lib Dems +5.8% (+2979 votes)




Saw this earlier:
18-24, 25-49,
50-64, 65+

Think it's funny how Liverpool, devoutly Anti-The Sun, vote labour - I know it's only a minor factor but it's a funny stat considering how much the Murdoch-media influence people.

I don't like the 25-49 breakdown. I think that's a very big age gap and that there will be a big divide between those at the younger end and those at the older end.

 

[Reiser99]

Scary how much the oldies are so nationalistic and hate the EU. Those maps tell me the UK will rejoin when they all pop their clogs and Labour get a grip

That's been known for a while. I'm amazed there is absolutely no blue in 18-24 year olds. I expected majority to vote labour, but not even one Tory heartland won their support...

Question is how many will remain labour voters over the next 2-3 elections.

 

[ncurd]

I don't like the 25-49 breakdown. I think that's a very big age gap and that there will be a big divide between those at the younger end and those at the older end.

Yeah I've been saying it everywhere where's it popped up I know extremely few under 40's that vote Tory and even those were switching to LD in this election.

Have to remember the oldest Millennials are in thier late 30's by the real definition.....media treats us like we're 20 though....