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- Thread starter Draggs
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Fair enough... The UN is a waste of time at this point. Useless organisation
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Symbolically it doesn't look good and I think countries would be better off staying in.
Having said that the UN human rights council is a joke as the majority of it's members are major human rights violators and they do spend a disproportionate amount of time singling out Israel for criticism. I mean it is a bit rich to have Saudis, Afghans, UAE, Cuba, Rwanda, Pakistan etc trying to lecture others about respecting human rights.
Having said that the UN human rights council is a joke as the majority of it's members are major human rights violators and they do spend a disproportionate amount of time singling out Israel for criticism. I mean it is a bit rich to have Saudis, Afghans, UAE, Cuba, Rwanda, Pakistan etc trying to lecture others about respecting human rights.
On one hand the UN is a joke which does very little to further the causes it was intended to help.
On the other when you under fire for separating children from their parents and putting them in internment camps....probably not the best time to leave.
On the other when you under fire for separating children from their parents and putting them in internment camps....probably not the best time to leave.
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You should really add the US to your list there - Guantanamo bay may have closed, but they do have these new concentration camps after all
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Governors are recalling National Guard soldiers/supplies/equipment from the borders, condemning Trump's administration.
You know it's bad when even the official Holocaust museum/memorial social media accounts are weighing in on the situation...
You know it's bad when even the official Holocaust museum/memorial social media accounts are weighing in on the situation...
DumbAmerican
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There's no way to legally enforce immigration law when someone shows up at the border with a kid other than to release them into the country or separate them. This goes back to a Bill Clinton administration settlement in court. Obama tried to hold the families in detention together, as Trump is now ordering, and civil rights organizations got courts to rule that illegal under the Clinton settlement. That's why Trump didn't originally try and keep the families together when he announced his new zero tolerance policy. You legally have to separate them. His new order is going to be overturned in the courts. He wants to change the law. The Democrats don't because they don't actually care about the specific issue of child separation. What they care about is getting as many illegals into the country as possible and using this as an issue to gin up votes from Hispanics for the mid terms. (It's debatable whether this is a strategy that will work). What happens if Trump goes back to the Obama administration policy is that the illegals are given a court date and then released. Christian charities then pick them up and send them wherever in the country they choose. The illegals than don't show up at their court date.
There have been just over 2,000 kids separated from their parents under this policy. Millions of American children are separated from parents because of our criminal and divorce laws every year. That this is an issue is complete and utter nonsense. Congress needs to change the law. People at the border need to be held, and the 99.9% that aren't legally allowed to enter the US need to be returned.
There have been just over 2,000 kids separated from their parents under this policy. Millions of American children are separated from parents because of our criminal and divorce laws every year. That this is an issue is complete and utter nonsense. Congress needs to change the law. People at the border need to be held, and the 99.9% that aren't legally allowed to enter the US need to be returned.
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"He wants to change the law, the democrats don't"
Luckily for him he has the house and Senate and what the democrats want means nothing.
Just more hot air from the guy who blames all his failures on the dems
Luckily for him he has the house and Senate and what the democrats want means nothing.
Just more hot air from the guy who blames all his failures on the dems
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I saw an article where Trump apparently said that he will "sign something" in regards to stopping the separation. But this might as well be alt-left South African media painting it as such... As a guy who is impersonal, doesnt care, buckling under pressure and just signing "a document" but in a sense i do understand both arguments. Mexico does the same thing at their Southern border for South American immigrants.
Not saying he is right or wrong as i have not really studied the options but im not willing to just accept the current mainstream media opinion that the separation is an evil action by an evil man. What is the alternative that is currently proposed ? To keep the children in the same holding cells as their arrested parents ? Im sure if they are separated on a temporary basis that they will be held in more child friendly conditions than the same as adults. in the end the immigrants has a legal process to follow and if they decide to take the risk of crossing illegally then they cant blame the US government. They took a risk by illegaly crossing and are now suffering the consequenses.
If they are really feeling opressed either economically or even physically then apply for entry as a refugee, alternatively follow procedure. Its difficult for even skilled profesionals to get into the US so if the US just allows those showing up at its border than it would send the wrong message to the immigrant hopefulls.
I feel that people sometimes just read "separated" and become outraged but dont consider that it might actually be inhumane to keep the children in the same conditions as their parents. their parents are now considered criminals until they await deportation so the conditions wont be that accomodating, and i would guess its very overcrowded. Just make sure you keep records of who is who and reunite them as soon as possible once the legal stuff is worked out.
Not saying he is right or wrong as i have not really studied the options but im not willing to just accept the current mainstream media opinion that the separation is an evil action by an evil man. What is the alternative that is currently proposed ? To keep the children in the same holding cells as their arrested parents ? Im sure if they are separated on a temporary basis that they will be held in more child friendly conditions than the same as adults. in the end the immigrants has a legal process to follow and if they decide to take the risk of crossing illegally then they cant blame the US government. They took a risk by illegaly crossing and are now suffering the consequenses.
If they are really feeling opressed either economically or even physically then apply for entry as a refugee, alternatively follow procedure. Its difficult for even skilled profesionals to get into the US so if the US just allows those showing up at its border than it would send the wrong message to the immigrant hopefulls.
I feel that people sometimes just read "separated" and become outraged but dont consider that it might actually be inhumane to keep the children in the same conditions as their parents. their parents are now considered criminals until they await deportation so the conditions wont be that accomodating, and i would guess its very overcrowded. Just make sure you keep records of who is who and reunite them as soon as possible once the legal stuff is worked out.
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Isn't that the issue though?
To apply for asylum you have to do it in person. Trumps ruling split them up before they had a chance to claim.
"If you wanna claim asylum do it the proper way by coming here.
....
Woah woah woah you crossed the border? YOINK"
That's why so many people are saying "well Obama had the same rules and no one cared". Because the rules about splitting up families if there had been a crime/someone had been arrested have been there for years, trump tweaked it so that simply being in the country was a crime even if you were following the correct asylum seeking protocols.
To apply for asylum you have to do it in person. Trumps ruling split them up before they had a chance to claim.
"If you wanna claim asylum do it the proper way by coming here.
....
Woah woah woah you crossed the border? YOINK"
That's why so many people are saying "well Obama had the same rules and no one cared". Because the rules about splitting up families if there had been a crime/someone had been arrested have been there for years, trump tweaked it so that simply being in the country was a crime even if you were following the correct asylum seeking protocols.
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https://www.facebook.com/MIchelle.Martin15/posts/1852738241454566
There is so much misinformation out there about the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy that requires criminal prosecution, which then warrants the separating of parents and children at the border. Before responding to a post defending this policy, please do your research...As a professor at a local Cal State, I research and write about these issues, so here, I'll make it easier for you:
Myth: This is not a new policy and was practiced under Obama and Clinton - FALSE. The policy to separate parents and children is new and was instituted on 4/6/2018. It was the brainchild of John Kelly and Stephen Miller to serve as a deterrent for undocumented immigration, approved by Trump, and adopted by Sessions. Prior administrations detained migrant families, but didn't have a practice of forcibly separating parents from their children unless the adults were deemed unfit. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-r...d?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
Myth: This is the only way to deter undocumented immigration - FALSE. Annual trends show that arrests for undocumented entry are at a 46 year low, and undocumented crossings dropped in 2007, with a net loss (more people leaving than arriving). Deportations have increased steadily though (spiking in 1996 and more recently), because several laws that were passed since 1996 have made it legally more difficult to gain legal status for people already here, and thus increased their deportations (I address this later under the myth that it's the Democrats' fault). What we mostly have now are people crossing the border illegally because they've already been hired by a US company, or because they are seeking political asylum. Economic migrants come to this country because our country has kept the demand going. But again, many of these people impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy appear to be political asylum-seekers. https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low
Myth: Most of the people coming across the border are just trying to take advantage of our country by taking our jobs - FALSE. Most of the parents who have been impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy have presented themselves as political asylum-seekers at a U.S. port-of-entry, from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. Rather than processing their claims, they have been taken into custody on the spot and had their children ripped from their arms. The ACLU alleges that this practice violates the Asylum Act, and the UN asserts that it violates the UN Treaty on the State of Refugees, one of the few treaties the US has ratified. This is an illegal act on the part of the United States government, not to mention morally and ethically reprehensible. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinio...f-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/
Myth: We're a country that respects the Rule of Law, and if people break the law, this is what they get - FALSE. We are a country that has an above-ground system of immigration and an underground system. Our government (under both parties) has always been aware that US companies recruit workers in the poorest parts of Mexico for cheap labor, and ICE (and its predecessor INS) has looked the other way because this underground economy benefits our country to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Thus, even though the majority of people crossing the border now are asylum-seekers, those who are economic migrants (migrant workers) likely have been recruited here to do jobs Americans will not do. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinio...f-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/
Myth: The children have to be separated from their parents because there parents must be arrested and it would be cruel to put children in jail with their parents - FALSE. First, in the case of economic migrants crossing the border illegally, criminal prosecution has not been the legal norm, and families have been kept together at all cost. Also, crossing the border without documentation is a typically a misdemeanor not requiring arrest, but rather a civil proceeding. Additionally, parents who have been detained have historically been detained with their children in ICE "family residential centers," again, for civil processing. The Trump administration's shift in policy is for political purposes only, not legal ones. See p. 18: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document...s-opposition-defendants-motion-dismiss-doc-56
Myth: We have rampant fraud in our asylum process the proof of which is the significant increase we have in the number of people applying for asylum. FALSE. The increase in asylum seekers is a direct result of the increase in civil conflict and violence across the globe. While some people may believe that we shouldn't allow any refugees into our country because "it's not our problem," neither our current asylum law, nor our ideological foundation as a country support such an isolationist approach. There is very little evidence to support Sessions' claim that abuse of our asylum-seeking policies is rampant. Also, what Sessions failed to mention is that the majority of asylum seekers are from China, not South of the border. Here is a very fair and balanced assessment of his statements: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...essions-claim-about-asylum-system-fraudulent/
Myth: The Democrats caused this, "it's their law." FALSE. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats caused this, the Trump administration did (although the Republicans could fix this today, and have refused). I believe what this myth refers to is the passage of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which were both passed under Clinton in 1996. These laws essentially made unauthorized entry into the US a crime (typically a misdemeanor for first-time offenders), but under both Republicans and Democrats, these cases were handled through civil deportation proceedings, not a criminal proceeding, which did not require separation. And again, even in cases where detainment was required, families were always kept together in family residential centers, unless the parents were deemed unfit (as mentioned above). Thus, Trump's assertion that he hates this policy but has no choice but to separate the parents from their children, because the Democrats "gave us this law" is false and nothing more than propaganda designed to compel negotiation on bad policy. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hildren-parents-mexico-separate-a8401521.html
Myth: The parents and children will be reunited shortly, once the parents' court cases are finalized. FALSE. Criminal court is a vastly different beast than civil court proceedings. Also, the children are being processed as unaccompanied minors ("unaccompanied alien children"), which typically means they are sent into the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHS). Under normal circumstances when a child enters the country without his or her parent, ORR attempts to locate a family member within a few weeks, and the child is then released to a family member, or if a family member cannot be located, the child is placed in a residential center (anywhere in the country), or in some cases, foster care. Prior to Trump's new policy, ORR was operating at 95% capacity, and they simply cannot effectively manage the influx of 2000+ children, some as young as 4 months. Also, keep in mind, these are not unaccompanied minor children, they have parents. There is great legal ambiguity on how and even whether the parents will get their children back because we are in uncharted territory right now. According to the ACLU lawsuit (see below), there is currently no easy vehicle for reuniting parents with their children. Additionally, according to a May 2018 report, numerous cases of verbal, physical and sexual abuse were found to have occurred in these residential centers. https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-obta...-widespread-abuse-child-immigrants-us-custody
Myth: This policy is legal. LIKELY FALSE. The ACLU filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration on 5/6/18, and a recent court ruling denied the government's motion to dismiss the suit. The judge deciding the case stated that the Trump Administration policy is "brutal, offensive, and fails to comport with traditional notions of fair play and decency." The case is moving forward because it was deemed to have legal merit. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...child-separations-at-border-may-proceed-judge
There is so much misinformation out there about the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy that requires criminal prosecution, which then warrants the separating of parents and children at the border. Before responding to a post defending this policy, please do your research...As a professor at a local Cal State, I research and write about these issues, so here, I'll make it easier for you:
Myth: This is not a new policy and was practiced under Obama and Clinton - FALSE. The policy to separate parents and children is new and was instituted on 4/6/2018. It was the brainchild of John Kelly and Stephen Miller to serve as a deterrent for undocumented immigration, approved by Trump, and adopted by Sessions. Prior administrations detained migrant families, but didn't have a practice of forcibly separating parents from their children unless the adults were deemed unfit. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-r...d?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
Myth: This is the only way to deter undocumented immigration - FALSE. Annual trends show that arrests for undocumented entry are at a 46 year low, and undocumented crossings dropped in 2007, with a net loss (more people leaving than arriving). Deportations have increased steadily though (spiking in 1996 and more recently), because several laws that were passed since 1996 have made it legally more difficult to gain legal status for people already here, and thus increased their deportations (I address this later under the myth that it's the Democrats' fault). What we mostly have now are people crossing the border illegally because they've already been hired by a US company, or because they are seeking political asylum. Economic migrants come to this country because our country has kept the demand going. But again, many of these people impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy appear to be political asylum-seekers. https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low
Myth: Most of the people coming across the border are just trying to take advantage of our country by taking our jobs - FALSE. Most of the parents who have been impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy have presented themselves as political asylum-seekers at a U.S. port-of-entry, from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. Rather than processing their claims, they have been taken into custody on the spot and had their children ripped from their arms. The ACLU alleges that this practice violates the Asylum Act, and the UN asserts that it violates the UN Treaty on the State of Refugees, one of the few treaties the US has ratified. This is an illegal act on the part of the United States government, not to mention morally and ethically reprehensible. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinio...f-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/
Myth: We're a country that respects the Rule of Law, and if people break the law, this is what they get - FALSE. We are a country that has an above-ground system of immigration and an underground system. Our government (under both parties) has always been aware that US companies recruit workers in the poorest parts of Mexico for cheap labor, and ICE (and its predecessor INS) has looked the other way because this underground economy benefits our country to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Thus, even though the majority of people crossing the border now are asylum-seekers, those who are economic migrants (migrant workers) likely have been recruited here to do jobs Americans will not do. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinio...f-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/
Myth: The children have to be separated from their parents because there parents must be arrested and it would be cruel to put children in jail with their parents - FALSE. First, in the case of economic migrants crossing the border illegally, criminal prosecution has not been the legal norm, and families have been kept together at all cost. Also, crossing the border without documentation is a typically a misdemeanor not requiring arrest, but rather a civil proceeding. Additionally, parents who have been detained have historically been detained with their children in ICE "family residential centers," again, for civil processing. The Trump administration's shift in policy is for political purposes only, not legal ones. See p. 18: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document...s-opposition-defendants-motion-dismiss-doc-56
Myth: We have rampant fraud in our asylum process the proof of which is the significant increase we have in the number of people applying for asylum. FALSE. The increase in asylum seekers is a direct result of the increase in civil conflict and violence across the globe. While some people may believe that we shouldn't allow any refugees into our country because "it's not our problem," neither our current asylum law, nor our ideological foundation as a country support such an isolationist approach. There is very little evidence to support Sessions' claim that abuse of our asylum-seeking policies is rampant. Also, what Sessions failed to mention is that the majority of asylum seekers are from China, not South of the border. Here is a very fair and balanced assessment of his statements: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...essions-claim-about-asylum-system-fraudulent/
Myth: The Democrats caused this, "it's their law." FALSE. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats caused this, the Trump administration did (although the Republicans could fix this today, and have refused). I believe what this myth refers to is the passage of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which were both passed under Clinton in 1996. These laws essentially made unauthorized entry into the US a crime (typically a misdemeanor for first-time offenders), but under both Republicans and Democrats, these cases were handled through civil deportation proceedings, not a criminal proceeding, which did not require separation. And again, even in cases where detainment was required, families were always kept together in family residential centers, unless the parents were deemed unfit (as mentioned above). Thus, Trump's assertion that he hates this policy but has no choice but to separate the parents from their children, because the Democrats "gave us this law" is false and nothing more than propaganda designed to compel negotiation on bad policy. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hildren-parents-mexico-separate-a8401521.html
Myth: The parents and children will be reunited shortly, once the parents' court cases are finalized. FALSE. Criminal court is a vastly different beast than civil court proceedings. Also, the children are being processed as unaccompanied minors ("unaccompanied alien children"), which typically means they are sent into the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHS). Under normal circumstances when a child enters the country without his or her parent, ORR attempts to locate a family member within a few weeks, and the child is then released to a family member, or if a family member cannot be located, the child is placed in a residential center (anywhere in the country), or in some cases, foster care. Prior to Trump's new policy, ORR was operating at 95% capacity, and they simply cannot effectively manage the influx of 2000+ children, some as young as 4 months. Also, keep in mind, these are not unaccompanied minor children, they have parents. There is great legal ambiguity on how and even whether the parents will get their children back because we are in uncharted territory right now. According to the ACLU lawsuit (see below), there is currently no easy vehicle for reuniting parents with their children. Additionally, according to a May 2018 report, numerous cases of verbal, physical and sexual abuse were found to have occurred in these residential centers. https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-obta...-widespread-abuse-child-immigrants-us-custody
Myth: This policy is legal. LIKELY FALSE. The ACLU filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration on 5/6/18, and a recent court ruling denied the government's motion to dismiss the suit. The judge deciding the case stated that the Trump Administration policy is "brutal, offensive, and fails to comport with traditional notions of fair play and decency." The case is moving forward because it was deemed to have legal merit. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...child-separations-at-border-may-proceed-judge
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DumbAmerican
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The Democrats can block almost anything they want in the Senate. As of now Chuck Schumer's response when asked if the Democrats will support a new law is that the President should use his pen. That means a return to catch and release for anybody caught at the border with a minor. I doubt they'll actually block a bill, but they will probably maneuver behind the scenes to hold it up.
Trump can't make the House or Senate do anything. He's been trying to get them to send him an immigration reform bill since his Presidency started. He's offered to formally legalize the millions of DACA kids who were brought here as immigrants. The Democrats will block any bill in the Senate that severely curtails future 3rd world immigration, even if it does fix the issue for the DACA kids. Paul Ryan is an open borders zealot / muh free market / nation of immigrants type and he runs the House. Trump is more popular within his own party than other recent Presidents, but the Republican bigwigs and money people hate him.
I don't know what the calculations behind the scenes were, but I wouldn't be surprised if Trump manufactured this crisis to get Congress going on at least a partial reform of this specific issue so that illegals arriving with children can be held more easily in the future.
DumbAmerican
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There's misinformation posted above.
The government has always had the option to prosecute illegals in criminal court. This isn't a law Trump passed. This is a law Trump is now enforcing more vigorously.
There's a binding court agreement called the Flores Agreement from the Clinton Administration. It bars children caught at the border from being held for more than a certain amount of time. This means that there won't be time to prosecute the illegals or to process asylum claims for anyone who brings a child into the country. The only solution other than separating the child from the parent is to release them and hope they show up for their court date. Here's the background on the Flores Agreement from a left wing news source.
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/20/17484...ation-flores-settlement-agreement-immigration
The government has always had the option to prosecute illegals in criminal court. This isn't a law Trump passed. This is a law Trump is now enforcing more vigorously.
There's a binding court agreement called the Flores Agreement from the Clinton Administration. It bars children caught at the border from being held for more than a certain amount of time. This means that there won't be time to prosecute the illegals or to process asylum claims for anyone who brings a child into the country. The only solution other than separating the child from the parent is to release them and hope they show up for their court date. Here's the background on the Flores Agreement from a left wing news source.
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/20/17484...ation-flores-settlement-agreement-immigration
How can the democrats block bills in the Senate? You know purely from a procedural point of view that doesn't include filibustering?
Also are you like 6? Trump is nowhere b
near the most popular president with Republicans for.many years you only have to go back to Bush Jr. who was immensely popular post 9/11 and had one highest approval records of any president in history. Meanwhile Trump has one of the lowest.
Also are you like 6? Trump is nowhere b
near the most popular president with Republicans for.many years you only have to go back to Bush Jr. who was immensely popular post 9/11 and had one highest approval records of any president in history. Meanwhile Trump has one of the lowest.
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Yes, it's called separation of powers.
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Yes, just about everything you've written on the subject is "misinformation"
"Oh, the poor Repbulicans, who's hands are completely tied by having the White House, and control of both the Senate and Congress"
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FTR Bush Snr was more popular than Bush Jr ahead of "The war on terror".
IIRC Trump is the least popular president since Nixon, on either side of the aisle:
Here are Gallup's approval tracking (green = approve; yellow = dunno red = disapprove)...
Roosevelt; 50%-70%
Truman; 23%-87%
Eisenhower; 48%-89%
Kennedy; 57%-82%
Johnson; 35%-80%
Nixon; 24%-67%
Ford; 38%-71%
Carter; 28%-75%
Reagan; 35%-68%
Bush Snr; 29%-89%
Clinton; 38%-70%
Bush Jnr: 25%-90%
Obama; 40%-66%
Trump; 38%-42%
If we keep it to Republican Presidents; then
Bush Jnr spent about 63% of his time more popular than Trump's highest rating
Bush Snr spent about 85% of his time more popular than Trump's highest rating
Raegan spent about 95% of his time more popular than Trump's highest rating
Ford spent about 80% of his time more popular than Trump's highest rating
Nixon spent about 82% of his time more popular than Tump's highest rating
The only (Republican) presidents to spend any real time less popular than Trump's lowest; is the last year or so of Bush Jr's term; and about the last year or so of Nixon's term.
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Despite anyone view on Brexit, theresa May has the exact same trouble as Trump not enough power to ram through everything without compromise within her own party. She can and does try to say Labour if they go onboard would allow her to do want she wants but the press in this country don't lie to us and make it abundantly clear if her own party could agree there is nothing the other parties outside of DUP could do to stop her.
Cool was more pointing that you only had to go to last republican president that was more popular than Trump. Its interesting to note with all those presidents they were more popular than Trump at one time during their presidency.
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Yeah, I was about to go through them having a look at that, but I had to treat a patient instead... which was significantly more interesting anyway.
Now I've got 10 minutes again; and I can't be arsed; it's bloody obvious that "most popular Republican president" is an outright lie.
ETA: Okay, it was still bugging me, so I did go and ETA the previous post.
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