A Political Thread

[GarethGriffiths]

They had a mass shooting every year up until Port Arthur and have not had one since. I really wish you research some of this stuff.

Yet this is all because of guns? Switzerland has a higher rate of gun ownership than the USA, yet mass shooting incidents there are very few. The psyche of the people there is totally different.

Buying guns on the dark web? Are you ******* serious. The only people who can supply illigel guns are organised crime gangs and they dont give them to nerds or stupid teenagers on a killing spree because those kind of people tend to tell the police where they got them from when they get caught.

If you ban guns in the USA, you are opening up a lucrative underground trade. Guns are banned in the UK, yet deaths from shootings still happen here. Where do these guns being smuggled into the UK come from, if you cannot buy one here legally?

As I have said before, and will say again, we need to look at why people are committing these heinous acts. Why are these kids dysfunctional, why do they feel so upset that they think that murder is an acceptable thing to do? Is there too much stress/pressure on them to conform, for instance?

In America you can got into Asda and buy an AR 15 before you can buy a beer. You can then take that rifle and shoot people you dont like. Thats not ideal in a nation with high levels of mental illness and pescription anti depressents.

Same as I can stab somebody with a knife from Tesco, or I can throw acid at somebody I dislike. I may not kill them, but I've pretty much ruined their life in the process.

I get the point that guns are lethal in the wrong hands, but what is being brushed under the carpet is that banning them will not do anything. Tighter regulation and maybe even mental health tests COULD be a partial solution - indeed, large majorities of Americans support universal background checks, permit requirements for gun ownership and bans on the most dangerous kinds of weapons and ammunition. The gun lobby, and the loud vocal minority it echoes, make the issue seem like more of a hot button than it is.

Second, scores of research shows that these interventions work to a stunning degree. In Connecticut, which has expanded background checks and requires issued handgun permits, gun crimes have dropped by 40 percent. I believe (though it's not being discussed) that there was a chance to intervene in the case being discussed, but it was missed - again, why?

You also mention mental illness and depression - these need to be fundamentally addressed.

It's not a solution, per se, but it might be the beginning of ending tragedies such as what we've seen today.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

I guess that's another benefit of gun regulation, less people who are able to sell guns illegally.

Definitely needs to be considered.

 

[McTallshort]

Why is gun ownership high in Switzerland?

Because nearly all adults have to do military service due to fact Switzerland has no allies. When they complete military service they take their gun, lock it away for a time when it's needed. Guess how much ammunition they are allowed to store with it? **** all.

There is a very nasty element in America that wants to keep selling guns to the general public. Doesn't matter how many people die as long as people keep buying the guns. Stabbing someone with a knife is far far harder than shooting them for 50 yards away.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Then you need to address your feelings to the NRA, Tallshort.

The problem is that the response will be 'it's because of idiots like this that people need guns to protect themselves.'

If somebody was going to shoot me, I'd like the ability to defend myself from this. Without defence, I am dead and I can see that side of the argument.

Stricter regulation (possibly involving Mental Health Testing) and testing like that in Connecticut could be the way to go.

Would you also demand that Antifa were disarmed? http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article172286812.html

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Therefore the proliferation of guns should not be hindered.

Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people. Therefore the proliferation of nuclear weapons should not be hindered.

So, who is in favour of the unhindered proliferation of nuclear weapons worldwide?

 

[truthteller]

I HATE guns
I especially HATE automatic weapons that fire multiple bullets, no member of the public should be able to buy them anywhere
As for guns themselves, you will never stop people buying them in the usa
I guess you can try and tighten the laws, the licenses, the criminal background checks etc Thats do-able if the politicians werent all paid off/or shall we say politically backed by NRA
The blame lies with politicians for the never ending problems with gun laws NOT just in america but loads of countries, right across south america and south africa and others where gun crime per head is actually even worse

 

[GarethGriffiths]

I HATE guns
I especially HATE automatic weapons that fire multiple bullets, no member of the public should be able to buy them anywhere
As for guns themselves, you will never stop people buying them in the usa
I guess you can try and tighten the laws, the licenses, the criminal background checks etc Thats do-able if the politicians werent all paid off/or shall we say politically backed by NRA
The blame lies with politicians for the never ending problems with gun laws NOT just in america but loads of countries, right across south america and south africa and others where gun crime per head is actually even worse

Exactly.

Ragerancher, in both instances you need humans to do the actions. Guns and Nukes do not do anything without human intervention.

There are an estimated 350 million guns or so in the USA. Who would hand them in, the law abiders or the criminals? What would it do to the balance and crime overall? If they had banned guns after Vegas, would it have stopped this?

The root cause isn't the guns it is the people who do this. They could use a lorry if they didn't have a gun. The causes of the mental health issues are where the problem has to be attacked but that is a long road and there are too many big fish profiting from those causes. Look at how Big Pharma (Glaxo, Bayer etc.) profits from young people in the USA, for instance, kids there can be prescribed Prozac before they develop pubic hair:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/should-children-take-antipsychotic-drugs/

Switzerland, Canada and the USA all have relaxed gun laws, yet the USA has the highest incidents of fatalities from shooting. Now, if guns are evil, they are evil all over surely? Surely it is vis-a-vis? If not then Switzerland and Canada must have more responsible people than the USA, and therefore the problem goes a lot deeper and we need to examine the psyche of people who are a potential risk to others.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Gareth you're comparing USA - population 330 million with Canada (population 36 million) and Switzerland 8 million. You're just not comparing like with like when it comes to civilian fatalities from shootings in those countries with vastly different population sizes - guns/type of guns and deaths per 10000.

 

[MarkyH]

Same as I can stab somebody with a knife from Tesco, or I can throw acid at somebody I dislike. I may not kill them, but I've pretty much ruined their life in the process.

I get the point that guns are lethal in the wrong hands, but what is being brushed under the carpet is that banning them will not do anything. Tighter regulation and maybe even mental health tests COULD be a partial solution - indeed, large majorities of Americans support universal background checks, permit requirements for gun ownership and bans on the most dangerous kinds of weapons and ammunition. The gun lobby, and the loud vocal minority it echoes, make the issue seem like more of a hot button than it is.

Second, scores of research shows that these interventions work to a stunning degree. In Connecticut, which has expanded background checks and requires issued handgun permits, gun crimes have dropped by 40 percent. I believe (though it's not being discussed) that there was a chance to intervene in the case being discussed, but it was missed - again, why?

You also mention mental illness and depression - these need to be fundamentally addressed.

It's not a solution, per se, but it might be the beginning of ending tragedies such as what we've seen today.

Gareth, we get what you are trying to say, but you can't dispute than guns have potential to do more damage than a knife in scenarios like what happened this week.. Hence why most of us believe the US should change the constitution...

OR, as you mention Connecticut, change the laws so it makes it really difficult to get guns (isn't that what we are all saying). Yes they need better support for mental illness but sometimes that person has never seen anyone for help before they head into Asda to buy a gun. Yes its a US mentality, no we can't get rid of all guns tomorrow, but making it harder to get guns (LIKE IN YOUR EXAMPLE) surely makes sense?

Either that, or stop making bullets

 

[ncurd]

Lets be honest here guy's there is absolutely no good reason for a normal civilian to own a gun. The proliferation of guns don't stop deaths they just increase the likelyhood of multiple deaths.

It's killing potential is far higher than any other commercially availiable weapon (in the US).

If you are going to allow guns to be sold to people stringent checks and balances need to be place to ensure the people who own them are unlikely to go nuts. Sadly this is far easier said than done and massively expensive.

Universal healthcare for physical and mental problems should be availiable to all (note US fails misreably compared to most countries in this regard to).

The problem won't solved today it won't be tommorow it will decades to solve the US issues with guns. However they are not even willing to start conversation.


On on stop making bullets its not a terrible idea I've heard one way to start is bullet control, if you limit the amount of bullets a person can own you can at least stop thier ability to commit mass shootings. In turn you don't need to stop gun ownership and recall all the guns out there overnight.

 

[McTallshort]

Lets be honest here guy's there is absolutely no good reason for a normal civilian to own a gun. The proliferation of guns don't stop deaths they just increase the likelyhood of multiple deaths.

It's killing potential is far higher than any other commercially availiable weapon (in the US).

If you are going to allow guns to be sold to people stringent checks and balances need to be place to ensure the people who own them are unlikely to go nuts. Sadly this is far easier said than done and massively expensive.

Universal healthcare for physical and mental problems should be availiable to all (note US fails misreably compared to most countries in this regard to).

The problem won't solved today it won't be tommorow it will decades to solve the US issues with guns. However they are not even willing to start conversation.


On on stop making bullets its not a terrible idea I've heard one way to start is bullet control, if you limit the amount of bullets a person can own you can at least stop thier ability to commit mass shootings. In turn you don't need to stop gun ownership and recall all the guns out there overnight.

Sorry disagree. I am a "Normal" civilian and I own 2 shotguns. Which I use for Clay Shooting, Decoying, Wildfowling and if I'm lucky enough a bit of game shooting too.

There are many such Normal civilians in the UK and they like me had to go through a number of checks which are all paid for by our application fee. So its not far easier said than done and it isnt massively expensive either.

Where I do agree in in regards the Healthcare. No point doing a background check on mental illness if the person applying for a licence has never been to the doctors for depression because its too expensive.

 

[MarkyH]

Sorry disagree. I am a "Normal" civilian and I own 2 shotguns. Which I use for Clay Shooting, Decoying, Wildfowling and if I'm lucky enough a bit of game shooting too.

There are many such Normal civilians in the UK and they like me had to go through a number of checks which are all paid for by our application fee. So its not far easier said than done and it isnt massively expensive either.

Where I do agree in in regards the Healthcare. No point doing a background check on mental illness if the person applying for a licence has never been to the doctors for depression because its too expensive.

That's what @ncurd said tho isn't it.... If you are going to allow guns to be sold to people stringent checks and balances need to be place to ensure the people who own them are unlikely to go nuts

Making it harder to get guns, as it is in the country, would surely be start to better gun regulation?!

 

[McTallshort]

That's what @ncurd said tho isn't it.... If you are going to allow guns to be sold to people stringent checks and balances need to be place to ensure the people who own them are unlikely to go nuts

Making it harder to get guns, as it is in the country, would surely be start to better gun regulation?!

Yes but he also said it was impractical and expensive which it isnt.

 

[ncurd]

As noted before me and Tallshort can agree to disagree on general gun ownership. Firearms in this country are limited by essentially their capcity for mass-murder it wouldn't be my decision but thats where we are and for the most part it seems to be working.

My checks and balances would be expesive though in it would require a in depth interview with a trained firearms officer. Similar but possibly not as in-depth as checks for highest security clearances.

I wouldn't rely of doctors visits as there is still a huge stigma over mental illness especially in men that stop them from even going to see a doctor.

 

[McTallshort]

As noted before me and Tallshort can agree to disagree on general gun ownership. Firearms in this country are limited by essentially their capcity for mass-murder it wouldn't be my decision but thats where we are and for the most part it seems to be working.

My checks and balances would be expesive though in it would require a in depth interview with a trained firearms officer. Similar but possibly not as in-depth as checks for highest security clearances.

I wouldn't rely of doctors visits as there is still a huge stigma over mental illness especially in men that stop them from even going to see a doctor.

Yeah you get one of those as part of your application, he also checks where the guns are stored and how secure your house is. Also not sure how much mass murder I would be able to commit with an old English side by side and No7 shot cartidges but OK lets agree to disagree.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah you get one of those as part of your application, he also checks where the guns are stored and how secure your house is. Also not sure how much mass murder I would be able to commit with an old English side by side and No7 shot cartidges but OK lets agree to disagree.

I'm honestly and obviously ignorant to the checks (I just tried to google it but most of it blocked at work) having never wanted to own a gun (I do have a full metal airsoft MP5 that's not been used in a decade)

I think your missing my point about mass-murder the whole reason in this country your allowed to own those guns is because it would be difficult. Which I accept.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They should ban semi automatics (I think full autos are banned anyway?).

Bolt action/single shot rifles/shotguns are perfectly adequate for the hunting crowd but also drastically limit the ability to murder 19 children before getting stopped.

 

[ncurd]

They should ban semi automatics (I think full autos are banned anyway?)..

Yup but the only real distinction is having to pull the trigger for each individual bullet you can still fire at a ridiculous rate.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, especially with bump stocks existing for some reason

 

[McTallshort]

A semi automatic rifle is in the right hands more deadly than something that can fire full auto. I was only taught to use automatic fire on very specific scenarios when in the army. Someone taking deliberate aimed shots is far more effective than someone blasting away on full auto but it's not the mechanism that's the problem it's the number of rounds the weapon holds. In the UK except for very specific reasons you are limited to 3 rounds on semi auto guns (shotguns and rifles) and that's the same for pump actions as well. From what I understand you can buy high capacity magazines in the states that can hold up to 60 rounds....if you need that many rounds to drop a deer you should take up stamp collecting