A Political Thread

[McTallshort]

Sadly, but predictably, it didn't take long. The only questions were where, when and how many.

And the response from the Pro Gun brigade? If the church hadnt been a gun free zone then someone could have shot the attacker. Yeah thats right, the answer to mass shootings is more untrained people with guns.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yep, you don't need a conspiracy for a lone nut job in the USA to shoot people, no matter how important/unimportant they are.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Wow didn't mean to start a who killed JFK discussion.

You didn't, I did.
It's a very interesting topic, even now, and the mad conspiracists have some wild ideas that I have no time for, however, the physics of the actual assassination are impossible to argue with, there was more than one shooter.

The reasons have been discussed ad infinitum and churned up some real garbage, most of which has long died down leaving the sifters to put the pieces together, for me, it's simple, examine history. When the most popular figures are murdered it's because other folks are worried they don't have the power they want and the control they want.
JFK was handsome and charismatic. He was immensely popular with the American people. (Donald Trump should be safe)
He couldn't be easily controlled.
Eisenhower had warned in the previous decade about the danger of the abuse of power by the Military Industrial Complex and we have watched it over the last 70 years.

JFK was murdered by the old boy network, much like his brother in the later 60's.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

You didn't, I did.
It's a very interesting topic, even now, and the mad conspiracists have some wild ideas that I have no time for, however, the physics of the actual assassination are impossible to argue with, there was more than one shooter.

The reasons have been discussed ad infinitum and churned up some real garbage, most of which has long died down leaving the sifters to put the pieces together, for me, it's simple, examine history. When the most popular figures are murdered it's because other folks are worried they don't have the power they want and the control they want JFK was handsome and charismatic. He was immensely popular with the American people. (Donald Trump should be safe)
He couldn't be easily controlled.
Eisenhower had warned in the previous decade about the danger of the abuse of power by the Military Industrial Complex and we have watched it over the last 70 years.

JFK was murdered by the old boy network, much like his brother in the later 60's.

Well, you brought up the release of the papers and that they were interesting; I was guilty of saying no they weren't as it didn't shed any new light on the saga. Conspiracy theories in the JFK assassination offer meaning and purpose (like you said above "it's because") i.e. there was this grand reason why he was killed instead of looking at the ballistics evidence and also who LHO was (as you said this has been gone through infinite times and I won't rehash - just to say you're on one side of the line; I am on the other). As Vegas and Texas and all other shootings in US show, you don't need a conspiracy in order to murder anyone (the big names get the bigger headlines and are remembered most -From Presidents, Wannabe Presidents (RFK), activists (MLK), Celebrities - John Lennon to ordinary, everyday people) just someone with the gun and the means and willingness to kill. Unfortunately, there are a lot of these people in the USA; with easy access to such weapons.

 

[The Jones Boy]

You're a conspiracist in the sense that you're a counter conspiracist.
You can refuse to look at the mountain of supporting evidence and the fact that they have supressed this for so long because the old boy network know exactly what they did.
One of the key conspiracy theories is to deny there was a conspiracy.
There was more than one shooter from more than one position/angle. That has been proven by physics.
As soon as someone decides to take on the hard physics of science then the dreamland notion that it was a single shooter is eradicated.
Unless you subscribe to the Michael Gove school of discussion where "We've had enough of experts."

Where the released papers have shown great interest is in they elicit further credence to the political line taken by the President by showing JFK was softening his position toward Russia and Cuba. He wasn't interested in a long drawn out war in Vietnam.
That didn't sit at all well with the 'establishment' running the power block in the Military Industrial Complex.
You need war to make money when you're running a war machine. The economic outcome of the second world war showed that in fine style.
Who had the biggest motive for offing JFK?
i.e. Who had the most to gain?
Always follow the money.
Who had the means of achieving that successfully and implementing a plan to up the ante in Vietnam and prolong the Cold war?

It gets easy really fast when you keep it simple and follow the money framed only by facts, not the countless red herrings of the conspiracists and counter conspiracists.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Leave it Jones Boy. There's plenty of Ballistics evidence there was only one shooter and it was LHO and it came from his position on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Read Case Closed by Gerald Posner or Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History who debunk the conspiracy theories and cover more in depth into LHO 's background.

What makes sense now 54 years after the assassination is it was a perfect storm to give rise to conspiracy. A murder that shocked the world at the height of the Cold War, which could have tipped it into WW3. A President who had many enemies, the Warren Commission under pressure and rushing their report so it showed inconsistencies (although their end conclusion was essentially correct) because LBJ wanted to get elected in the 1964 election. CIA and FBI wanting to cover their tracks that they knew LHO was a danger and didn't do enough to stop him (did not tell JFK's secret service LHO was working in the TBD) and their profound guilt and shame as a result. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

All this helped ferment conspiracy theories because people wanted to believe there was something more because how could a nobody kill at the time the President of the US and change History. That's why I said JFK comes out so well from this (his shagging around seems to add to his legendary status) because we will never truly know what his real intentions or what he would have been had he not been assassinated. It will always be a question of what if.

 

[The Jones Boy]

There's plenty of tampered Ballistics evidence there was only one shooter ...

What makes sense now 54 years after the assassination is it has been a most excellent cover up made possible by the highest offices in the US political framework to organise the destruction and subsequent suppression of vital records surrounding the matter.

It will always be a question of what if because that is how those responsible wish to keep it.

There you go, fixed that for you.
Physics has clearly shown that it's not possible for the shots that killed JFK to have come from the same trajectory.

Ergo, the FBI and the CIA knew about the Osama Bin Laden sleeper cell that was training as pilots to initiate 9/11
Now they ply the same line, we are sorry we didn't work hard enough to intercept them and incarcerate them before they acted.
Since that time we now have a world where we are inundated by the excess of laws impinging on our freedoms and civil liberties, apparently for our own good, but has it stopped the terrorist attacks? Has it made us safe?
No.
Because thats not what the laws are about.
State intervention, arresting powers and control have rocketed since 9/11, this is itemised fact all over the western world, and we are no closer to solving the 'terrorist issue'.
However, it has done wonders for the US Military Industrial complex to have 'bad guys' that can be anywhere, all the time, so we have to be militarily over prepared...

You take one little angle served up to you and hold it up as the smoking gun.
History my friend, history will show you that there is nothing new in what is occurring in the meta game.
Eisenhower signalled it and so it has come to fruition.

Same sh*t different day Blindside.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

back to the real world...

it was only local elections but republicans took a big L yesterday

 

[Bada-Bing!]

There you go, fixed that for you.

Same sh*t different day Blindside.

Very true what Vincent Bugliosi said on Conspiracy Theorists like you:

"....their modus operandi is to do one of two things: twist, warp and distort ....or simply to ignore it... both of which are designed to deceive...."

Anyway, whatever makes you happy Jones Boy you keep searching for the truth on JFK. Hope you find it one day......

 

[Which Tyler]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html
So, Roy Moore, (Republican), is up for election in Alabama; and has been accused of sexual assault of a minor (14 years old) albeit 40-odd years ago.
Leigh Corfman told The Washington Post that Moore, then a 32-year-old assistant district attorney, took off her shirt and pants and removed his own clothes in one 1979 incident. He touched her through her bra and led her hands to touch him through his underwear, she said. She was 14 at the time.
Three other women who spoke to the Post ― for a deeply reported article that was published Thursday ― said Moore had "asked them on dates when they were between 16 and 18 and he was in his early 30s."


In his defence we have...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...sault-alabama-gop_us_5a04c816e4b0e37d2f366dba
Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl. "I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."
Yes - that's right, being a democrat really is worse than sexually assaulting a minor.

"He's clean as a hound's tooth," Alabama State Auditor Jim Ziegler "Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There's just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual."
Yes - that's right, sexually assaulting a minor isn't immoral or illegal; and if it was good enough for the Virgin Mary, then... wait, hang on a second... virgin?

Alabama state Rep. Ed Henry had this to say though: "If they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years," he told The Cullman Times. "I think someone should prosecute and go after them. You can't be a victim 40 years later, in my opinion."
Yes - that's right, if you're abused as a child, and only come forward with this 40 years later, YOU are the one who should be prosecuted.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Very true what Vincent Bugliosi said on Conspiracy Theorists like you:

"....their modus operandi is to do one of two things: twist, warp and distort ....or simply to ignore it... both of which are designed to deceive...."

Anyway, whatever makes you happy Jones Boy you keep searching for the truth on JFK. Hope you find it one day......

Bugliosi ?
Hahahahahah What a clown.
The lawyer muppet who prosecuted the Manson family and then turned it into a Hollywood circus for his own capital gain and personal aggrandisement?
The same numpty that wrote a book about George W Bush being a war criminal, when the real danger of that period was Cheney and Rumsfeld. George dubya was the ***ular head but he was a puppet.
He completely avoided pointing the finger where it was meant to be pointed, much like his Hollywood screenplay on JFK.
It was a screenplay initially and Bugliosi has been widely discredited for the fact he toolk money in advance from television companies to 'explore' LHO as the sole gunman.
30 years on the physics and ballistics have proved it could not have been a lone gunman.
Bugliosi didn't have access to that modern technology or the internet, he collated his material from old micro film. Being that so much of that material was not available at the time of his book writing it's clear he is making assumptions from a very limited information pool.
Bishop James Ussher gave the age of the earth at 4004 BC, all he used for his information pool was the bible.
He was in line with predictions of his time... but time moves on and so does technology.
Who are you going to trot out as your next sagely author?
Jackie Collins.?
Really ? Bugliosi is all you've got.
Who's your other hero?
Rudi Giuliani?

The same Bugliosi stated that Robert F Kennedy's assassination was a conspiracy.
His words...
The same perpetrators killed his older brother, but money talks so he chose not to write a book about that.;-)

 

[The Jones Boy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html
So, Roy Moore, (Republican), is up for election in Alabama; and has been accused of sexual assault of a minor (14 years old) albeit 40-odd years ago.
Leigh Corfman told The Washington Post that Moore, then a 32-year-old assistant district attorney, took off her shirt and pants and removed his own clothes in one 1979 incident. He touched her through her bra and led her hands to touch him through his underwear, she said. She was 14 at the time.
Three other women who spoke to the Post ― for a deeply reported article that was published Thursday ― said Moore had "asked them on dates when they were between 16 and 18 and he was in his early 30s."


In his defence we have...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...sault-alabama-gop_us_5a04c816e4b0e37d2f366dba
Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl. "I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."
Yes - that's right, being a democrat really is worse than sexually assaulting a minor.

"He's clean as a hound's tooth," Alabama State Auditor Jim Ziegler "Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There's just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual."
Yes - that's right, sexually assaulting a minor isn't immoral or illegal; and if it was good enough for the Virgin Mary, then... wait, hang on a second... virgin?

Alabama state Rep. Ed Henry had this to say though: "If they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years," he told The Cullman Times. "I think someone should prosecute and go after them. You can't be a victim 40 years later, in my opinion."
Yes - that's right, if you're abused as a child, and only come forward with this 40 years later, YOU are the one who should be prosecuted.

Trump is in a bad place, but I don't think he cares.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Bugliosi ?
Hahahahahah What a clown.
The lawyer muppet who prosecuted the Manson family and then turned it into a Hollywood circus for his own capital gain and personal aggrandisement?
The same numpty that wrote a book about George W Bush being a war criminal, when the real danger of that period was Cheney and Rumsfeld. George dubya was the ***ular head but he was a puppet.
He completely avoided pointing the finger where it was meant to be pointed, much like his Hollywood screenplay on JFK.
It was a screenplay initially and Bugliosi has been widely discredited for the fact he toolk money in advance from television companies to 'explore' LHO as the sole gunman.
30 years on the physics and ballistics have proved it could not have been a lone gunman.
Bugliosi didn't have access to that modern technology or the internet, he collated his material from old micro film. Being that so much of that material was not available at the time of his book writing it's clear he is making assumptions from a very limited information pool.
Bishop James Ussher gave the age of the earth at 4004 BC, all he used for his information pool was the bible.
He was in line with predictions of his time... but time moves on and so does technology.
Who are you going to trot out as your next sagely author?
Jackie Collins.?
Really ? Bugliosi is all you've got.
Who's your other hero?
Rudi Giuliani?

The same Bugliosi stated that Robert F Kennedy's assassination was a conspiracy.
His words...
The same perpetrators killed his older brother, but money talks so he chose not to write a book about that.;-)

I see you've sunk very low Jones boy and are no different to any of the other Conspiracy Nut jobs out there: attacking an author's credibility because he has written a viewpoint and backed it up that doesn't match your own, instead of of rebutting the substance of what he's written with sound evidence and reasoning. But anyway, like I said before you keep believing what you want to keep believing in respect of the JFK assassination. It is a fascinating bit of history; it's legacy in the USA is still for all to see: the democratising effect of the use of the bullet (No one is immune to being killed by a nut job with a gun) and also the deep distrust it has imbued in Americans about their own Government.

The same perpetrators killed his older brother, but money talks so he chose not to write a book about that.

Bugliosi's book is 1632 pages including footnotes. I doubt he wrote it to make money from it.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Who needs a conspiracy when you've got Jackie Collins level of 30 year old one eyed bias detective work that you are holding up as the righteous and only way forward using long outdated methods and being paid by the establishment.
It's like Tobacco companies employing scientists to get exactly the results they want so they can use it to sell more cigarettes.
Nothing to see here..

I I doubt he wrote it to make money from it.

He was paid up front. By whom?
Who paid the TV money?
It came from an offshore account.
That much is known.
He was a Hollywood stooge.
Brave enough to say Robert Kennedy was assassinated as part of a conspiracy but paid handsomely to argue the toss the other way for JFK.
Long discredited as a stooge author, he cashed in on OJ, tried to cash in on George Dubya (another stooge) and a failed politician.

Who needs a conspiracy when this is the gutter level evidence you purport to being the holy grail.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Who needs a conspiracy when you've got Jackie Collins level of 30 year old one eyed bias detective work that you are holding up as the righteous and only way forward using long outdated methods and being paid by the establishment.
It's like Tobacco companies employing scientists to get exactly the results they want so they can use it to sell more cigarettes.
Nothing to see here..



He was paid up front. By whom?
Who paid the TV money?
It came from an offshore account.
That much is known.
He was a Hollywood stooge.
Brave enough to say Robert Kennedy was assassinated as part of a conspiracy but paid handsomely to argue the toss the other way for JFK.
Long discredited as a stooge author, he cashed in on OJ, tried to cash in on George Dubya (another stooge) and a failed politician.

Who needs a conspiracy when this is the gutter level evidence you purport to being the holy grail.

Have you read the book? How do you know? Sounds like your own bias has already determined that you won't read it. Or Gerald Posner's case closed? In fact Posner is not immune from being criticsed by Bugliosi.

Have you read the full Warren report? Or the HSCA report?

The trial which pitted Bugliosi and Spence is on YouTube. It was unscripted and involved the actual witnesses on both sides that were there on the day; a real Texas District judge and jurors from the Texas roll all flown over to London film it . Both lawyers had time to prepare for the trial as though it was for real with research assistants. Spence only had to put a reasonable doubt in the Juror's minds to absolve LHO; whereas all the burden was on Buglosi to prove beyond a reasonable doubt LHO was the lone shooter.

 

[The Jones Boy]

"As though it was for real..."

But it wasn't.
It was 23 years later in another time and another place aftter so very much water had passed under the bridge and still using outdated outmoded technologies from 30 years ago.
It was a mock up.
That's all it was.
I'm not a conspiracist.
I'm a skeptic.
You're a believer, enjoy the blue pill and don't question anything seriously, it's a quiet life, easier that way.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

"As though it was for real..."

But it wasn't.
It was 23 years later in another time and another place aftter so very much water had passed under the bridge and still using outdated outmoded technologies from 30 years ago.
It was a mock up.
That's all it was.
I'm not a conspiracist.
I'm a skeptic.
You're a believer, enjoy the blue pill and don't question anything seriously, it's a quiet life, easier that way.

You want updated technology. This one is from 2004 and involves computer 3D animation based on the Zapruder film.

 

[The Jones Boy]

That didn't prove anything except old graphics don't sell well.
No discussion of deviation of the bullet from the point of entry to where it lands, that always happens, a singular frame perspective.
No discussion about the direction of the first shot or where that bullet lodged.

At best it looks like a junior lawyers singular preparation for court.
At worst a port folio piece for a young graphic landscape designer for early video games.

The biggest part of the assassination is not about the shots that were fired, sure that's important but there is a much wider picture, it's about the timing and the conduct of the fall out in how aspects were handled and how they 'coincided ' with events.
That is where LBJ comes under scrutiny and is found wanting.
Just like his brothers assassination, this was a pre-ordained and co-ordinated event.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

That didn't prove anything except old graphics don't sell well.
No discussion of deviation of the bullet from the point of entry to where it lands, that always happens, a singular frame perspective.
No discussion about the direction of the first shot or where that bullet lodged.

At best it looks like a junior lawyers singular preparation for court.
At worst a port folio piece for a young graphic landscape designer for early video games.

The biggest part of the assassination is not about the shots that were fired, sure that's important but there is a much wider picture, it's about the timing and the conduct of the fall out in how aspects were handled and how they 'coincided ' with events.
That is where LBJ comes under scrutiny and is found wanting.
Just like his brothers assassination, this was a pre-ordained and co-ordinated event.

That was just a small clip from documentary. The rest of is you can watch on Youtube.
First shot missed. Hit a tree hit a curb and broke apart, a fragment hit James Tague on his cheek causing minor injuries - covered in Case Closed (Gerald Posner) and Bugliosi's book. Warren Commission and HSCA, if you bothered to read any of those.

As I said, you're never going to accept what happened wasn't a conspiracy - despite overwhelming evidence to support LHO did and did it alone. 53 separate pieces of evidence. You may be able to tamper with 1 or 2, but 53, no way.

Let's turn this around - what concrete evidence do you have that it was a conspiracy? It doesn't count saying the actual evidence doesn't show so and so, and therefore your conclusion it had to be a conspiracy and therefore LBJ is the ultimate culprit. Let's see you produce a 3D animation to support where in your "view" the bullets went, came from, deviated, lodged. You're just adding 2 and 2 together coming up with 5 and then making your aspersions based on that your erroneous initial presumptions. Your "wider picture" means diddly squat, if you don't look at the physical evidence and also who LHO was.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I did ask you to examine the wider context instead of focussing on the minutiae.
Lets say LHO did it all on his own, with no assistance, and no collusion.
The authorities have taken it on themselves to state that they should have done more to keep him away from any chance of this opportunity.
Why do you think people are determined to get ALL of the papers that have deliberately been held back until key liars were dead and impossible to put on the stand?
Gosh, there's nothing like fake remorse to kick up a conspiracy.
They said the same thing at Pearl Harbour.
They said the same thing about the Saudi's for 9/11.
They said the same thing about Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Robert Kennedy.
They said the same thing about the Contra deal with Oliver North, he was acting alone yada yada
It's all just a very convenient coincidence isn't it.
How unfortunate that a key player in his inner circle should accidentally be shot and killed in a hunting trip, by Mr Dick Cheney.
Who has gained from every assassination or negative occurrence ? since Eisenhower warned about the power of the Military Industrial Complex?
The only entity that gained from it was the MIC. That is the corporations that make up the power block in the arms industry.
It's a case of, in the absence of any other evidence what ever you are left with, must be the truth.
Tobacco companies, Monsanto, Bauer et al spend exorbitant volumes of currency putting forward arguments and claims backed by 'facts' to camouflage the poison they peddle.
Where did they learn that from?
Lobby groups abound in this age.
Look at the recent blatant misbehaviour of Priti Patel with the FOI.
Who did Jack Ruby work for?
Wasn't it the same group that Olly North was 'inadvertently' assisting?
The CIA, are a black ops organisation.
Their prime directive seems to be to topple regimes that don't bend to the will of the MIC. Create instability and peddle lies to instil a puppet that will 'co-operate'. Failure to comply will give you a Grenada situation, a Libya, a Syria, a Ukraine, an Iraq and so forth.
The first thing I brought up about the papers was that they did indeed yield crucial information that you Blindside played down.
It showed Kennedy was not escalation of the military intervention in Vietnam and that his attitude to the Russians had softened. He didn't want war. He'd had enough during his own distinguished service on torpedo boats in the second world war. He wasn't keen on the fallout of conflict.
The Military Industrial Complex cannot survive without war. It cannot function without war. There is no profit margin in peace. That's why global terrorism is a great invention for them.
That is why the western press demonises countries like Iran. Yeah sure they are a bit weird and sometimes freaky, however, they have not attacked another country in the last 70 years.
Can we say that about the USA, Israel, The UK, France, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia etc
When you need to have a war as a cornerstone of productivity in your economy you need to have an element in your governmental structure that isn't locked into the governmental structure so that it can act in a maverick manner where needed to make sure that conflict (overseas) will occur. If not a direct intervention then at least to create a situation where one (if not both sides) can be supplied products from the MIC.
In the case of internal politics, anyone who looks like they might upset the agenda for the MIC will be ... removed.
Now whether that happens to be by 'letting' a loony loose with the means and access to do the job (that would be your position regarding LHO), or by orchestrating it all and covering it up, it doesn't matter, as long as the outcome is favourable for the MIC.