A Political Thread

[ncurd]

I just spent the afternoon socialising with people after work (yearly corporate ******** event). Due to the industry I work in it was 7 men to one woman. The first two to leave early were men on parent duties to young uns.

I think we have as a nation have a very warped view on a father's actual role in parenting.

 

[j'nuh]

Did y'all watch the video, along with reading the article? The text seems very selective, and not a great representation of what he actually said. The video is a bit clearer:

"The behaviour of companies that encourages an ethic of early evening socialisation in order to promote themselves within the company benefits men who don't feel the need to be at home looking after their children..."

That is:

1. He's not talking about socialising after work, but company-led drinking with the purpose of networking.
2. He's not talking about men, but men who do not share in the parenting responsibilities. Which is still an issue to an extent although maybe less than in the past.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

how often does company led drinking happen outside of japan? it's not very popular in the western world

 

[j'nuh]

D'you not have Christmas meals/drinks?

 

[ncurd]

Sorry mate, grow up, that's life, networking with your colleges is part of what you have to to do. Getting along with them outside of a work environment promotes better relationships within it.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

D'you not have Christmas meals/drinks?

yeah once a year... in which anyone can get a babysitter for one day a year

 

[ncurd]

But Corbyn would's have clue like most political elite he hasn't actually had a proper job since before I war born.

 

[j'nuh]

Sorry mate, grow up, that's life, networking with your colleges is part of what you have to to do. Getting along with them outside of a work environment promotes better relationships within it.

Well that was patronising. I'm aware that it is helpful for my employer. If they want exercises in relationship-building, they can do it during work hours at their own expense. When my contracted hours are up, how I spend my own time and money is for me to decide.

Do I miss out on networking and career progression? Maybe, but frankly, if attending social events and knowing people matters more for career progression than your work performance then I don't want to work there. Let alone, if that were the case, it would be discriminatory towards Muslims, parents, teetotalers etc.

But Corbyn would's have clue like most political elite he hasn't actually had a proper job since before I war born.

I never got dehumanising politicians; being an MP is a real job? I doubt many people put in the work hours that the average MP, let alone a party leader, puts in. (Nick Clegg's interview in the Guardian today is a nice little insight into the working life of an MP.)

 

[McTallshort]

Just because the message is unpopular, doesn't make it wrong.

Maybe because I have anecdotal experience of it in the absence of any kind of figures, but some men spend far too much time at the pub vs with their kids.

tbh, I'd rather drinking culture was separate from work.

No not anymore they dont. That was a problem in my dads generation but not mine. The problem is mums taking their kids to the pub letting them run riot while they get hammered with their mates.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Sorry mate, grow up, that's life, networking with your colleges is part of what you have to to do. Getting along with them outside of a work environment promotes better relationships within it.

Question: are you guys talking about how things are, or about how things should be?
I agree with you that things are the way you describe, but i agree with j'nuh that judging someone's performance and career development on that is wrong.

 

[Peat]

It isn't something a politician can address and "Fix" as it isn't political, basically even in power he couldn't change it or do anything about it so why mention it.

More or less this. Particularly since people will use it to make him look stupid.

As for MP being a not normal job - that's correct. (I presume thats what ncurd meant) You identify part of the reason yourself J'nuh - the workload is insane and prevents a normal life. Throw in the ego boosting effect of the Westminster bubble and the incredible job security if you're in a safe seat and... yeah.

Also - J'nuh, if you've found somewhere to work where networking doesn't matter, you've managed a miracle. And you can go out for drinks after work and not drink alcohol.

 

[j'nuh]

More or less this. Particularly since people will use it to make him look stupid.

But it's not even true that he can do nothing about it. I think it takes a bit of a lack of imagination to not see how a politician and/or a political party and/or a government can change the culture of a country. They can do it without even passing any legislation.

How did politicians get people to take up sports? They shovelled money into the Olympics. How did they stop people smoking? Warnings on cigarette cartons. People not wearing seatbelts? Advertising.

How do you create a more inclusive environment for networking in the workplace? Promotion of diversity, especially in regards to people understanding what falls under diversity. (e.g. in the civil service, people are made to do mandatory e-learning on diversity, where more than simply covering race, sex, age etc., it also covers working patterns, parental status etc.) If the entire Labour party repeats this message as part of a wider vision on working culture, it will sink in.

Also - J'nuh, if you've found somewhere to work where networking doesn't matter, you've managed a miracle. And you can go out for drinks after work and not drink alcohol.

I didn't say networking doesn't matter, just that there should be no expectation to do in your own time and with your own money. People can perfectly network within work hours.

 

[Tony Manx]

No not anymore they dont. That was a problem in my dads generation but not mine..

It was not a problem then or should it be now - I have a fantastic relationship with my children and even my grandchildren!

My eldest just flew 6,000 miles for 36 hours to celebrate a birthday of mine and I am still married to his Mother so do not think that my going to the pub after work on a very regular basis damaged any of our relationships too much!!

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

i do find it interesting that networking is completely different in fields dominated in men vs women

both my parents are fairly successful: dad's a businessman and my mom's a nurse

my dad was always out golfing or going out to drinks with the other executives at both his company and other companies that he worked with

with my mom it was all about who you had worked or went to school with previously... she was head of an ER at a catholic hospital at a very young age just cause she went to that hospital's nursing school
of course my mom does do trips with other nurses but they seemed to be much more like reunions than networking trips since they are all pretty cemented in their careers and most are at least semi-retired

 

[Tony Manx]

i do find it interesting that networking is completely different in fields dominated in men vs women

both my parents are fairly successful: dad's a businessman and my mom's a nurse

my dad was always out golfing or going out to drinks with the other executives at both his company and other companies that he worked with

with my mom it was all about who you had worked or went to school with previously... she was head of an ER at a catholic hospital at a very young age just cause she went to that hospital's nursing school
of course my mom does do trips with other nurses but they seemed to be much more like reunions than networking trips since they are all pretty cemented in their careers and most are at least semi-retired

Hello son!

 

[j'nuh]

My place is pretty alright to be fair. Individual teams sort out social events amongst themselves, however much or little the team want to meet. But progression in the organisation is kept completely separate: applications to a higher post are blind, and assessed by two people who you don't generally work with or even know. You would have to get cosy with a lot of people in order to network your way up. I think it's quite a fair model which doesn't discriminate against those who cannot/would not go to these events.

And it seems the higher in the organisation you go, the more that model breaks down. (Middle management is very even in gender split; higher management is an all-male thing.)

 

[Peat]

But it's not even true that he can do nothing about it. I think it takes a bit of a lack of imagination to not see how a politician and/or a political party and/or a government can change the culture of a country. They can do it without even passing any legislation.

How did politicians get people to take up sports? They shovelled money into the Olympics. How did they stop people smoking? Warnings on cigarette cartons. People not wearing seatbelts? Advertising.

How do you create a more inclusive environment for networking in the workplace? Promotion of diversity, especially in regards to people understanding what falls under diversity. (e.g. in the civil service, people are made to do mandatory e-learning on diversity, where more than simply covering race, sex, age etc., it also covers working patterns, parental status etc.) If the entire Labour party repeats this message as part of a wider vision on working culture, it will sink in.


I didn't say networking doesn't matter, just that there should be no expectation to do in your own time and with your own money. People can perfectly network within work hours.

Life it too short to have a long argument on something as deadly dull as this so I will simply merrily laugh at the idea that the entire Labour party repeating a message will change heavily entrenched corporate culture on a minor issue and then laugh even longer at the idea that Jeremy Corbyn can get the entire Labour party to do anything.

Then maybe giggle at the idea it will kill out of hours networking as people do that of their own free will anyway.

On that note, I'm out.

 

[j'nuh]

Culture change isn't done overnight; Corbyn should get the message rolling and we will get there maybe 40 years from now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[ratsapprentice]

Nah.

"Networking" is just a dressed up name for socialising. It benefits employees because socialising benefits relationships. He's not going to stop people from going to the pub, or from going to the pub with colleagues... "networking".

I can't agree that not being able to attend social events after work is discrimination - it's a disadvantage, but one which a parent has sole responsibility for IMO.

Being a Parent puts you at a distinct disadvantage in lots of areas, but you know... pros and cons, ennit?!
It's why having children is such a big ****ing deal.

It's no more unfair to parents than it is to dog owners who have to get home to feed and walk their pet.

 

[j'nuh]

"Networking" is just a dressed up name for socialising. It benefits employees because socialising benefits relationships. He's not going to stop people from going to the pub, or from going to the pub with colleagues... "networking".

I can't agree that not being able to attend social events after work is discrimination - it's a disadvantage, but one which a parent has sole responsibility for IMO.

Being a Parent puts you at a distinct disadvantage in lots of areas, but you know... pros and cons, ennit?!
It's why having children is such a big ****ing deal.

Legally it's not discrimination... just about... when it comes to parents.

Indirect discrimination: putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage (https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights/how-you-can-be-discriminated-against)

Being a parent is not a protected characteristic. IMO that's an oversight on the government's behalf. But Muslims may have a case for example; not being able to attend social events in pubs when required for job progression would put them at an unfair disadvantage, and religion is a protected characteristic.

But yeah, if socialising/networking out-of-hours is required for job progression, and that precludes groups, that's discrimination precisely because it's an unfair disadvantage.

There are also plenty of issues with over-familiarity/friendliness in a team and in a workplace. Firstly, you have people scratching each others back to the top; where people pass over on the person best suited for a job to give it to their pal. Secondly, you can get cliquey environments, good for those who have been around for ages and call the shots, not so welcoming to newcomers and those on the fringes. Thirdly, especially if you're in a position of responsibility and management, you may unfairly treat your mates, consciously or not, better than others you are managing. It's not in the interests of an organisation or the people in it to let this happen.