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A Political Thread pt. 2

Oh I'm sure some do, but when you have Farage leading their marches who's ****** em more than anyone else.
Farage would attend the opening of an envelope if he thought it would get him press. As far am I'm aware Ed Davey was on this one and he's definitely not right wing yet he won't make the headlines.
 
Aren't farmers basically business owners now anyway. Long gone are the days of farming being a low class job. They might try to act like they off the people, but I imagine many do a lot better than the majority of people.
 
Farage would attend the opening of an envelope if he thought it would get him press. As far am I'm aware Ed Davey was on this one and he's definitely not right wing yet he won't make the headlines.
Last I checked Ed Davey didn't campaign to have thier EU subsidies removed.
 
Aren't farmers basically business owners now anyway. Long gone are the days of farming being a low class job. They might try to act like they off the people, but I imagine many do a lot better than the majority of people.
Farms have always been businesses. Depends on your definition of farmer i guess. Plenty of people own farms or companies do but they aren't necessarily farmers.

Lots of farming is skilled work not really a low class job. It's not like there using an ox and plow now days. You also then have farm hands, managers, sheppards, fruit pickers and god knows what else.

A lot of the issues stems from allowing people and companies to buy large chunks of land to sit on, probably make money and then pass on without inheritance tax. I think it said today 40% of farm land sold last year wasn't to farmers more to people trying to avoid tax.
 
Saw someone suggest a good idea: rather than a flat inheritance tax have a sliding scale of inheritance sales tax
If you inherit the property/assets/land and sell straight away you pay full whack, give it a few years a bit less, a few more a bit less etc.

Tarquin who wants to sell daddy's paddocks to fund his new extension pays IHT, but the asset-rich-cash-poor family who want to continue farming the land their family have farmed for generations end up just passing it down and continue to do so

Admit I am a bit biased though as I'm not overly keen on inheritance tax, and I grew up working summer jobs on farms so have had a taste of what life is like for small farmers
 
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TBF Clarkson has done a lot to promote farming in this country. Clarkson's Farm is great.

He however a complete nitwit who supports the Tories despite thinking Brexit is a **** idea.
yeah, Clarksons farm was really interesting and even if you write off his farm (because he didnt know what he was doing, had several side projects etc) he did gove a voice to the farmer of the area and they all seemed to be struggling
 
Saw someone suggest a good idea: rather than a flat inheritance tax have a sliding scale of inheritance sales tax
If you inherit the property/assets/land and sell straight away you pay full whack, give it a few years a bit less, a few more a bit less etc.

Tarquin who wants to sell daddy's paddocks to fund his new extension pays IHT, but the asset-rich-cash-poor family who want to continue farming the land their family have farmed for generations end up just passing it down and continue to do so

Admit I am a bit biased though as I'm not overly keen on inheritance tax, and I grew up working summer jobs on farms so have had a taste of what life is like for small farmers
Whilst nice in theory, the more complex things get, the more loopholes they have, the more costly they are to implement etc etc. I imagine it causing more problems in the attempt to fix one.

Farms are businesses and the contents of an owned business can count towards the estate of an individual. I'm not all that clued up on the law surrounding this but it seems that the land a farmer owns is essentially an asset with value that they could potentially realise at any point by selling to a developer. How would this differ to simply owning a plot of empty land that you could also sell or a property you could sell?

As Clarkson himself admitted, him buying the farm is in part a tax dodge. He pays lots of money for the farm, that money is all then excluded from inheritance tax, his offspring then aren't interested in continuing the farm, sell it and essentially have inherited all the wealth without paying inheritance tax, meanwhile people with less will pay inheritance tax, especially if things like house prices continue to rise, pushing them into that threshold.
 
As Clarkson himself admitted, him buying the farm is in part a tax dodge. He pays lots of money for the farm, that money is all then excluded from inheritance tax, his offspring then aren't interested in continuing the farm, sell it and essentially have inherited all the wealth without paying inheritance tax, meanwhile people with less will pay inheritance tax, especially if things like house prices continue to rise, pushing them into that threshold.

Interesting how some significant tax dodges were known about and tolerated by previous Governments. Same goes for buying multi million pound houses via offshore companies to avoid massive stamp duty bills which is what Tony Blair and many other rich people have done.

Meanwhile IR35 gets clamped down on where one person contractors saved a few grand of income tax/NI a year by operating through a limited company in exchange for sacrificing job security, bonus, employee benefits, training and a career path.
 
Interesting how some significant tax dodges were known about and tolerated by previous Governments. Same goes for buying multi million pound houses via offshore companies to avoid massive stamp duty bills which is what Tony Blair and many other rich people have done.

Meanwhile IR35 gets clamped down on where one person contractors saved a few grand of income tax/NI a year by operating through a limited company in exchange for sacrificing job security, bonus, employee benefits, training and a career path.
Hmmm... I wonder if the people who write the laws are more likely to find themselves in the first, or second section?
 
BBC News - Trump picks WWE co-founder Linda McMahon for education secretary

It's like a bloody comedy, only it's real...
homer simpson episode 10 GIF
 
Saw someone suggest a good idea: rather than a flat inheritance tax have a sliding scale of inheritance sales tax
If you inherit the property/assets/land and sell straight away you pay full whack, give it a few years a bit less, a few more a bit less etc.

Tarquin who wants to sell daddy's paddocks to fund his new extension pays IHT, but the asset-rich-cash-poor family who want to continue farming the land their family have farmed for generations end up just passing it down and continue to do so

Admit I am a bit biased though as I'm not overly keen on inheritance tax, and I grew up working summer jobs on farms so have had a taste of what life is like for small farmers
If you're going to put a sliding scale on it - then I'd suggest doing it based on size of farm; or percentage of income that relates to farming in the tax returns.

for some back of an envelope maths:
IF you've called Joe Smith, with a 120 acre farm that's been in your family for several generations, and gives you a farming income of £15k pa, which amounts to 80% of your (declared) income - then you are exactly the sort of person who SHOULD be handing the farm on to your kids.
IF you're called James Dyson, with a 36,000 acre farm (or at least, 36,000 acres spread over multiple locations), and gives you a farming income of £4,500k pa, which amounts to 6% of your (declared) income - then you are exactly the sort of person who should be paying inheritance tax instead.

So take the average farm size (IIRC about 200 acres) - farms smaller than that can be handed on; farms double that pay half, farms triple pay full-wack.
Alt. if farming accounts for >75% of your income, you can hand the farm on. 60-75% pays half, <60% pays full-wack.

Of course, there's also the age-old way for landowners to avoid inheritance tax (let's face it, they've been doing it since there was such a thing as inheritance tax) of handing it over to your children when they're in their prime, and you really ought to have 7+ years to live. TBH, this should be the case even more the last few decades of life expectancy in the 80s, rather than 60s. If you're keeping the farm until you die, there's a decent chance that your kids will be retiring before they inherit.
Hit 60-65 years old, give the farm to your kids - stay on in an advisory role with as much hands-on as everyone wants.
Of course, the other argument I hear a lot of (anectode warning) is "farming's hard, and my kids don't WANT to take over the farm" - in which case, why on earth do you think they have a right to avoid inheritance tax? The purpose of the exemption is to keep it in the family because the family wants to continue being farmers.

And finally, farmer's lose out (from me) by continuing to hero-worship Nigel Garage who caused the bulk of this mess in the first place - and is almost certainly one of the "farmer"s for whom the entire exercise is a tax-dodge.

FTR though, I do have sympathy for most of the farmers protesting - it seems that they've mostly believed the fear-mongering lies from the likes of Clarkson and Farage

ETA:
Looks like the 200 acre average I used above is the mean, the median is about 1/4 of that.
467399150_10161418758947278_4698977895437537997_n.jpg
 
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Saw someone suggest a good idea: rather than a flat inheritance tax have a sliding scale of inheritance sales tax
If you inherit the property/assets/land and sell straight away you pay full whack, give it a few years a bit less, a few more a bit less etc.

Tarquin who wants to sell daddy's paddocks to fund his new extension pays IHT, but the asset-rich-cash-poor family who want to continue farming the land their family have farmed for generations end up just passing it down and continue to do so

Admit I am a bit biased though as I'm not overly keen on inheritance tax, and I grew up working summer jobs on farms so have had a taste of what life is like for small farmers
Yeah I don't hate this as much - ultimately I really dislike IHT (basically Government grave robbing imo), so I'll take any sort of policy which minimises it.

This is where there is an element of confusion in the debate though. Lots of rhetoric about "why do you think farmers should be exempted from a tax other businesses have to pay?", when the answer from a lot of corners is actually just an anti IHT one rather than a sector specific one
 
ultimately I really dislike IHT (basically Government grave robbing imo)
Considering generational wealth disparity is literally the number one cause of the gap between someone's prospects in life.

Plus its a tax on the beneficiary not the who died and we (theoretically) tax any other kind of personal wealth gain. I see no reason why this should be exempt. Without IHT Tarquin could do no work in his life and be given more than most people earn in their lifetimes. In fact some already do with it.

Trump wouldn't be President if he wasn't a 3rd generation super rich.
Musk wouldn't be in charge of anything if his Dad didn't own an Emerald Mine.
 
when the answer from a lot of corners is actually just an anti IHT one rather than a sector specific one
Which is a fair enough position to take (I disagree, but it's a fair position to take). But that's nothing to do with farming, it's a discussion on the "just"ness of inherited wealth/***les.

But the discussion currently happening, in the media, in front of Downing St, in Parliament, and in discussion boards up and down the land, is the exemption to IHT for farmers. IMO, reframing it into a different argument, is a different argument.
 
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