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A Political Thread pt. 2

Syria and Libya? The fact we are absolutely still dealing with the consequences of that now?

Not even close to Iraq. The illegality, WMD, sheer number of lives lost and subsequent uprising of terrorist groups like Al Queda who were behind 9/11 and various atrocities in Europe and beyond.

We'll never know what consequences there would have been with a different course of action. There could have been a direct confrontation with Russia in Syria and maybe in that case we're not even here to have the conversation.
 
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Thought it was April Fools Day.

Going to listen for the craic, and hope a few of O'Brien's quality callers ring in to challenge her.

First topic is immigration and the boats.

He agreed to this? Must be so he can take the **** when he gets back.
 
Tbh the subsequent distabilising of the Middle East in the those years was a direct result of Saddam and the Taliban falling. Not saying that excuses Obama, but he certainly had a mess to help clean up that was the direct result of Bush and Blair going to war.
 
He was only in office for a term but I recall a lot of criticism about the state of the economy Clinton inherited. There were also many suggestions that he used to grope young women but maybe there were ways to keep that out of the news back in those days. Granted he didn't do as much damage as his son.
He groped young women is putting it mildly.
 
One of the easiest choice for the new government to make.
Yet more tax-payer's money spaffed away on performative cruelty and no actual benefit.
 
We'll never know what consequences there would have been with a different course of action. There could have been a direct confrontation with Russia in Syria and maybe in that case we're not even here to have the conversation.
That's a ridiculous thing to say. Russia was never, is never looking for a nuclear war. They don't want to give up their luxury yachts and apartments in Monaco for the sake of Syria but they absolutely are always looking for weak foreign policy from western nations and Obama did nothing regarding Crimea and folded like a broken paste table over Syria despite escalating the situation there previously. He also failed to support Ukraine (something Trump actually did), supported the Saudis in Yemen (which is now bitting everyone) and caused a completely unnecessary situation in Libya which has given much support to a previously flagging ISIS.

In terms of foreign policy he was a failure just like Bush was before him. Although some of the blame does need to go to his then secretary of State who was probably driving much of the decision making.
 
That's a ridiculous thing to say. Russia was never, is never looking for a nuclear war. They don't want to give up their luxury yachts and apartments in Monaco for the sake of Syria but they absolutely are always looking for weak foreign policy from western nations and Obama did nothing regarding Crimea and folded like a broken paste table over Syria despite escalating the situation there previously. He also failed to support Ukraine (something Trump actually did), supported the Saudis in Yemen (which is now bitting everyone) and caused a completely unnecessary situation in Libya which has given much support to a previously flagging ISIS.

In terms of foreign policy he was a failure just like Bush was before him. Although some of the blame does need to go to his then secretary of State who was probably driving much of the decision making.

Who said Russia was looking for a nuclear war? I never said they were looking for one but I don't dismiss the possibility of one happening if things escalate quickly due to miscalculation. The risk may be not be high but it's still there. Presidents can't afford to look weak otherwise they're toast. Anyway, just to get things back on track. It's not all about military action and I never claimed Clinton and Obama were perfect and didn't make any mistakes. I said I thought they were better Presidents than Bush snr George W Bush. Here is a consolidated historian rankings list on wiki which happens to be aligned with my view.


I accept that comparing Presidents isn't easy given they operated in different eras with different threats and challenges. If I break it down to back to back Presidencies I believe that Clinton was a better President than Bush snr and that Obama was better than George W who IMO was by far the worst of the four. We'll never know how for example Bush jnr would have responded to Syria and Crimea. He was quite pally with Putin so maybe he would have told him to fill his boots given there was no oil or lucrative contracts up for grabs like there was in Iraq. Maybe the consequences would have been greater. We'll never know. What I do know is that Iraq was a war of choice and the biggest blemish on any President in my lifetime. A massive false flag operation that cost many innocent lives just to enable a shameless oil and lucrative contract grab for Bush and Cheney. I'm always open to persuasion but nothing I've read in the last couple of pages has changed my view so happy to agree to disagree.
 
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Who said Russia was looking for a nuclear war? I never said they were looking for one but I don't dismiss the possibility of one happening if things escalate quickly due to miscalculation. The risk may be not be high but it's still there. Presidents can't afford to look weak otherwise they're toast. Anyway, just to get things back on track. It's not all about military action and I never claimed Clinton and Obama were perfect and didn't make any mistakes. I said I thought they were better Presidents than Bush snr George W Bush. Here is a consolidated historian rankings list on wiki which happens to be aligned with my view.


I accept that comparing Presidents isn't easy given they operated in different eras with different threats and challenges. If I break it down to back to back Presidencies I believe that Clinton was a better President than Bush snr and that Obama was better than George W who IMO was by far the worst of the four. We'll never know how for example Bush jnr would have responded to Syria and Crimea. He was quite pally with Putin so maybe he would have told him to fill his boots given there was no oil or lucrative contracts up for grabs like there was in Iraq. Maybe the consequences would have been greater. We'll never know. What I do know is that Iraq was a war of choice and the biggest blemish on any President in my lifetime. A massive false flag operation that cost many innocent lives just to enable a shameless oil and lucrative contract grab for Bush and Cheney. I'm always open to persuasion but nothing I've read in the last couple of pages has changed my view so happy to agree to disagree.
You made the point that Obama brought things back after Bush's warmongering.

Below is all the conflicts America has been involved in during this century. There are 12 altogether and of those 12, 7 were initiated during Obama's time as President and a further 3 that were started before his time were carried on during his administration.

American intervention was out of control in the first 20 years of this century and Obama was it's biggest culprit.

 
That's a ridiculous thing to say. Russia was never, is never looking for a nuclear war. They don't want to give up their luxury yachts and apartments in Monaco for the sake of Syria but they absolutely are always looking for weak foreign policy from western nations and Obama did nothing regarding Crimea and folded like a broken paste table over Syria despite escalating the situation there previously. He also failed to support Ukraine (something Trump actually did), supported the Saudis in Yemen (which is now bitting everyone) and caused a completely unnecessary situation in Libya which has given much support to a previously flagging ISIS.

In terms of foreign policy he was a failure just like Bush was before him. Although some of the blame does need to go to his then secretary of State who was probably driving much of the decision making.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Trump gave support to Ukraine. It happened on his watch but I remember at the time the impression I got was very much that people were twisting his arm as much as they dared behind the scenes on that and all things involving Russia.
 

Seven Labour MPs have had the whip suspended for six months after voting against the government on an amendment to scrap the two-child benefit cap.

Money for the pension triple lock (costing £11 Billion), no money for taking children out of poverty (costing £3.5 Billion).
 
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She won the popular vote by 3m. But under the electoral system it means sweet FA. It's where those votes are and that's why swing states decide it.
i understand how the electoral college works (as much as the average person), wasn;t saying the popular vote should overrule it....was just in reference to the idea that she wasn't unpopular (hence quoting that comment), it seems she was as popular as any other presidential candidate in recent history...and more popular than several
 
i understand how the electoral college works (as much as the average person), wasn;t saying the popular vote should overrule it....was just in reference to the idea that she wasn't unpopular (hence quoting that comment), it seems she was as popular as any other presidential candidate in recent history...and more popular than several
She was more "popular" than Trump in that election but both still got votes under 50%. So
Neither were popular.


Ironically she lost by the same margin in the electoral college vote system that Trump lost to Biden in 2020 and Biden did win over 50%/ 7m more and whined it was fraud. Go figure. Just goes to show the stupidity of the system giving so much more weight to those mid west states.
 
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Trump gave support to Ukraine. It happened on his watch but I remember at the time the impression I got was very much that people were twisting his arm as much as they dared behind the scenes on that and all things involving Russia.
Ukraine asked for Javelin, Obama refused Trump gave. Ukraine asked for Stinger, Obama refused Trump gave.

Whether it was his arm being twisted or not is irrelevant, but during the Trump administration Ukraine received equipment that would ultimately save it from Russia's initial invasion.
 
Ukraine asked for Javelin, Obama refused Trump gave. Ukraine asked for Stinger, Obama refused Trump gave.

Whether it was his arm being twisted or not is irrelevant, but during the Trump administration Ukraine received equipment that would ultimately save it from Russia's initial invasion.
I don't argue it was the right decision, I'm saying I don't think trump did it because he wanted to. The immersion I have is trump wants to throw Ukraine under the bus and this time he will.
 
I don't argue it was the right decision, I'm saying I don't think trump did it because he wanted to. The immersion I have is trump wants to throw Ukraine under the bus and this time he will.

Yup. We'll see how pro Ukraine he is if he wins in November. He's the most pro Putin President since Bush jnr and has praised him publicly several times.
 

Money for the pension triple lock (costing £11 Billion), no money for taking children out of poverty (costing £3.5 Billion).
I think its fair to say considering the campaign Labour want to rollback on this one. But as they've unequivocally said not right now its gonna 2-3 years down the line. Possibly even 5 remove it right the next GE.

Those 7 names are always going to be serial whip breakers might as well instill some discipline now.
 
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