A Political Thread pt. 2

[Bada-Bing!]

Personally, I support PR (IIRC I've put my head above the parapet with my preferred method a month or two ago); and as a matter of principle, I support it. Yes, it means parties like Reform get a bigger voice, but it also means that Green get a bigger voice; and that those voices are proportionate to the size of national opinion - which is a good thing, even for voices I strongly disagree with.
Further, it means more coalitions, more collaboration, less confrontational politics - which can only be a good thing.

The issue is how do we get PR into our political system when FPTP favours the main two parties so much. It's less likely to be spoken about than Brexit. I was studying in A level politics and writing essays on it over 25 years ago and here we are today. Lib Dems had a golden opportunity back in the 2010 coalition but screwed that up.

And isn't Israeli politics dominated by coalitions? Extreme nationalists part and party to it. And in turn horse trading politics.

Our politics reflects our legal system which is an adversarial system.

 

[Which Tyler]

Oh, we don't, we can't. As you say, FPTP is too favourable to the 2 main parties.
calling 2010 a "golden opportunity" seems a little OTT, they managed to get a referendum on it, but didn't get to propose the form of PR, or have any discussion on the form of PR, and were very much a minority in the coalition.

I don't recall suggesting anywhere that PR prevents extremists from having a say in things.

Law is necessarily "he said, she said" and adversarial by definition. Politics is, because the system evolved that way, it isn't a baked in necessity of politics.

 

[ncurd]

Israeli politics is always naturally inclined to be very right wing due to be surrounded by people who'd blow them off the map of they had a chance. It isn't healthy but they have a situation we don't.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Oh, we don't, we can't. As you say, FPTP is too favourable to the 2 main parties.
calling 2010 a "golden opportunity" seems a little OTT, they managed to get a referendum on it, but didn't get to propose the form of PR, or have any discussion on the form of PR, and were very much a minority in the coalition.

Alright but it's the only time when it was on the table. So when will it in future?

I don't recall suggesting anywhere that PR prevents extremists from having a say in things.

Law is necessarily "he said, she said" and adversarial by definition. Politics is, because the system evolved that way, it isn't a baked in necessity of politics.

Yeh as opposed to European legal systems based more on a civil code.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Out of all the countries that use PR or a form of it, picking Israel and using that as the example feels very misleading.

 

[McTallshort]

 

[ncurd]

Its intriguing Sunak says its unremarkable about his race and being Prime Minster and Starmer acknowledging the extra hurdles he must of had to face.

 

[Reiser99]

I found it amusing that actually the Conservative Party Membership didn't actually want him and he only got into power through the MPs. The public, whether general or Conservative membership have never actually voted him into power.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

67% turnout where I live and although a much reduced majority a clear enough Tory hold. That's East Surrey for you……although Starmer obviously missed the message when growing up in the constituency.

Share of vote vs seats is a running sore.

 

[die_mole]

1. PR scoreboards in a FPTP election are misleading since rules influence the way individuals vote.
2. I'm fine with FPTP as long as one person actually means one vote unlike the US presidential election, not sure how well the UK constituencies are divided.
3. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...oe-biden-election-donors-abigail-disney-pause
Democratic infighting isn't going to help things. This should have been sorted two years ago.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Out of all the countries that use PR or a form of it, picking Israel and using that as the example feels very misleading.

Ok Israel is a bad example, but it's just one example. But one downside of PR is that coalitions lead to horse trading politics. Coalitions can be very fragile.

No voting system is perfect. Of course FPTP has many downsides the biggest one being it doesn't proportionally reflect the national vote. Love to get rid of it but it's not that simple as others here have suggested.

 

[Which Tyler]

Its intriguing Sunak says its unremarkable about his race and being Prime Minster and Starmer acknowledging the extra hurdles he must of had to face.

It's a warning to the Faragists

 

[Which Tyler]

Ok Israel is a bad example, but it's just one example. But one downside of PR is that coalitions lead to horse trading politics. Coalitions can be very fragile.

No voting system is perfect. Of course FPTP has many downsides the biggest one being it doesn't proportionally reflect the national vote. Love to get rid of it but it's not that simple as others here have suggested.

Who's suggested simplicity?

 

[big ginger 8]

The issue is how do we get PR into our political system when FPTP favours the main two parties so much. It's less likely to be spoken about than Brexit. I was studying in A level politics and writing essays on it over 25 years ago and here we are today. Lib Dems had a golden opportunity back in the 2010 coalition but screwed that up.

And isn't Israeli politics dominated by coalitions? Extreme nationalists part and party to it. And in turn horse trading politics.

Our politics reflects our legal system which is an adversarial system.

Ireland also has an adversarial legal system but our voting system is PR-STV.

Australia also uses a ranked system and NZ uses MMP.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

3. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...oe-biden-election-donors-abigail-disney-pause
Democratic infighting isn't going to help things. This should have been sorted two years ago.

Democrats constantly walk into these problems of their own making. They may be better than Republicans in general but they have sweet FA political savvy and are ridiculously naive.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This is from RTÉ (our national broadcaster). I found it quite funny.

 

[ncurd]

General election live: Keir Starmer names new cabinet, with Reeves as chancellor and Rayner as deputy PM

The prime minister appoints his top team after pledging “the work of change begins immediately”.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's the kind of thing that gives me hope Timpsons have genuinely good polices and I use them for that.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Seen off 5 Tory PMs.

 

[Gavin]

Seen off 5 Tory PMs.

What happens if you are allergic

 

[BrokenWing]

What happens if you are allergic

To Tories? Doesn't matter, they won't be around for a while.